>> Hi.

I'm Lewis Howes, New York Times best-selling author and entrepreneur.

And welcome to "The School of Greatness," where we interview the most influential minds in the world to inspire you to live your best life today.

In this episode, Dr. Ramani Durvasula, a clinical psychologist and expert on narcissistic relationships, sheds light on the complexities of narcissistic relationships.

We discuss how to identify red flags, how to understand the sunk-cost fallacy, and how to heal from past trauma.

Join us to learn how to leave toxic relationships behind and find your path to emotional freedom.

I'm so glad that you're here today.

Now let's dive in and let the class begin.

The first question I'll ask you, for people who, um -- who have ended relationships with a narcissist or narcissistic personalities, um, what's the best way for them to enter a new relationship without PTSD or without the remnants of, "Are they going to lash out on me?

Are they going to gaslight me?

They're going to do these things that I've experienced in the past?"

What's the best way to overcome that and enter a new relationship without bringing that baggage in the new one?

>> When I work with survivors in my practice, and when I speak to them in my -- in a subscription, like, a sort of healing program I've got that people come every month -- the one thing I say is, "You got to wait a beat."

The temptation is, "I'm going to throw myself into a new relationship as a palate cleanser."

I'm like, "You know what?"

Sit with that dirty palate for a minute, because you need to do this work in you."

Because I think the challenge is, is that when people get into narcissistic relationships or antagonistic or toxic relationships, they don't know what they're dealing with or they're replicating cycles from earlier in their life.

Right?

Or both.

And so what happens is, is that it's -- if you -- if you pivot too quickly, you don't get a chance to sort of know you.

A narcissistic relationship does such a number on you.

You have now been living in someone else's reality, right?

People forget, like, "Do I like pepperoni pizza, or do I enjoy this TV show?

Or what temperature do I want the house at?"

Like, you literally lose sight of your own subjective sense of who you are.

You lose sense of reality and your own perception of things.

You just lose it all because you literally have been living in psychological servitude to this other person.

So I tell people, "Listen, my gold standard is a year.

Give yourself a year, which I know is not a short period of time."

And everyone, like -- I'm like, "You know what?

Take care of your own business."

But a year.

I understand that feels like a long time.

But here's the thing.

These relationships get so much into someone's head that in a year, a person can re-coalesce.

And they can unpack it and they can start putting down some of the rumination.

You certainly don't want to do that in a new relationship, right?

>> You don't want to bring that.

>> You don't want to bring that in.

And you can also learn what you like, what you don't like, so that when somebody encroaches on that and says -- they say something contemptuous as, "Oh, who eats that?"

and say "Again, this is not okay.

I'm not doing this again."

You can start recognizing those patterns of what just doesn't feel right.

But if you roll right into it, it's almost like a re-creation of the old cycle.

You need that separation.

You need a break from anniversary dates.

You need to have that first birthday alone, their first birthday alone, the holidays you do, the vacations you take.

You've got to go live a life without them.

And once you -- Because otherwise, you're so, again, caught up.

You might get caught up in someone else's sort of whole toxic bomb storm.

So, now, I know a lot of people say a year just feels too long.

I'm like, "I got you.

I get it."

A year is optimal.

And the folks who've done it said, "I don't regret doing that at all now."

>> Sure.

>> But for a lot of people, it might even be eight months, nine months.

But there's a moment, Louis, after a narcissistic relationship, where a person will look up as they go to bed that night and say, "Oh, my God, I didn't think of them once today."

That's a good day.

>> That's an amazing day.

>> And I want not just one of those.

I want a person to have a month of those, a while of those, where they're just -- You know, sure, something might remind them or something, but not that, like, "What are they doing?

What are they up to?"

Almost to the point where you've detached.

It might even be a moderate indifference, like, "Oh, whatever."

You know, "Let them do them."

>> It doesn't, like, trigger you.

>> It doesn't set you off in the same way.

But I do caution people, depending on the severity of the narcissistic relationship, sometimes people will report feeling those echoes years down the line, even if they fallen in love with someone else.

And someone will say, "Does that mean I'm not over them?"

Not at all.

It means that the way the trauma systems in the mind and the body hold on to information, it means that anything that reminds you of that can still activate you.

I've been through this, and I got to tell you, to this day, I think if I saw some of the people who harmed me in the past -- I can think of a few -- >> You'd have a response.

>> Oh, my gosh, beyond a response.

I actually think I would have to -- I would almost -- It would be akin to panic.

And I honestly do not care what happens to those people, but if I saw them, it would be really upsetting for me.

It's not that I'm not over it, it's just that I -- it's just my nervous systems say, "Danger, danger.

>> "Get away from this experience, yeah.

Interesting.

Wow.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> So, the optimal is nine months to a year, but it's really more like taking the temperature of allowing your nervous system to heal.

See if you can have a few days in a row, and a month in a row, where you're not thinking about that person, or it's not triggering you consistently, before you enter into a new relationship.

>> And that you're clear on who you are.

Because in a narcissistic relationship, you're defined by the relationship.

"Are they happy today, are we having a good day, are they happy with their lives?"

It's everything is about them, right?

So, now, for the first time, you make things be about you.

Like, "I'm good."

Like, "No, I want to pursue this job."

"No, I'm moving to New York."

And not like, "Ooh, is this going to work?"

Mnh-mnh-mnh.

You for a minute.

You.

And when you meet your Person, capital "P," and it's healthy, they might say like, "Aw, you know what?

For about six months, we could do this long-distance, or I could work remotely.

I'll come to New York.

We'll figure it out."

You'll start to see that there's a possibility for compromise.

But I do think that a lot of people, after a narcissistic relationship, their tripwire is a bit more sensitive, and they may throw back a few fish that are big enough to keep.

And that's okay.

I'd rather that people overcorrect than undercorrect.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> They might say, "Am I --" And this is where, again, when I work with clients, they'll say, "Am I being too intense about this?

Is this too big an ask?"

Nine times out of ten, Louis, it's not too big.

Like, they're right on point with the thing they're sensing feels red-flaggy to them or doesn't feel comfortable or something isn't sitting well.

And I'm teaching people, "Listen to that."

>> It's so funny you're saying this, because when I got into my relationship with Martha, my girlfriend now, in the beginning, I was like, "Listen, part of --" I think I specifically said to her, like, "I kind of want you to run away from me, because I want to be so authentically myself that it either draws you into me because you accept and receive who I am, or it kind of repels you away from me of, like, my truth and my vision and my mission and who I am in this world and my being -- right?

-- what I want to create in this life."

Because I think I gave in so much, in previous relationships, to please others and to change who I was and morph to make sure that they were okay and happy, which is all my responsibility for doing that.

But I was like, "I'm not changing who I am just to make one person happy, right?

I'm going to -- This is who I am.- If you want to hang out and be friends and see where it goes, cool.

If not, that's cool, too.

But I'm not going to change myself to try to get you to like me and make you constantly happy."

>> Right.

>> You know, or anytime you're upset at me for doing something, I'm going to stop, you know, doing it just to make you happy, and be an edge.

>> Right, mm-hmm.

>> I'm so glad that I did that.

Well, part of me was, like, probably some PTSD in the beginning, where I was like, "I'm just doing this to protect myself."

>> Right.

>> Because I'd rather be single than get into a relationship that's unhealthy.

>> And that's the key, right?

"I'd rather be single than get into a relationship that's unhealthy."

And that's -- Because that's what people are afraid of.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> I was like, "I'll be single the rest of my life if it means I'm not going to be in this type of relationships that I've been in the previous.

And it's creating a new standard for myself -- what I'll allow in and what I want to allow, what boundaries I'll create, and making sure, that it's in alignment with my partner, as well.

And I'm glad I did that, even though in the beginning she was like, "You might have had a little PTSD, still, from the previous relationship."

I'm kind of glad that I came with that.

I would call it -- I was very courageous in my communication about, "This is my truth, and it may scare you away, and I have to be okay if you're not accepting it.

>> Correct.

>> I have to be okay if you don't like me.

>> Correct.

>> And here's, like, an amazing woman that may not want to be with me.

And I have to be okay with that.

>> Yes.

>> But it's not giving in anymore.

>> Right.

It's not giving in.

And I think that that's the key.

>> Yeah, and it was a beautiful experiment for me, entering a relationship that way by being honest about, "This is who I am.

This is my values.

This is my vision.

This is what I'm aligned to and what I'm not aligned to."

>> Mm-hmm.

>> "If this is something you want to explore, then let's keep dating and exploring it and seeing how it goes."

And I think that was a beautiful experience for me to witness the receiving of that on the other side, and just being consistent with my word.

You know, "This is what I want.

This is what I not want," and being in that place.

But how can we make sure?

But in the beginning I'll probably say there was a little PTSD, remnants of it.

How can we make sure we don't bring in that energy?

Is it just waiting for a year and nine months and doing the work on the healing process?

But do we not bring any of that past relationship into new relationships?

>> When you say "bring that past relationship into new relationships," what do you think that looks like?

What do you mean by that?

>> The traumas of the past relationship, the trigger responses, the, you know, things that you did in previous relationships to protect yourself.

How do you continue to keep an open heart and open mind and not go back into the default?

>> Right, so, one thing I would tell people is, "Don't shame your triggers," because I think when people say, "I don't want to be triggered," I'm like, "Nah, you know, you don't have that line into your sympathetic nervous system.

It's always going to be quicker than you."

So you are -- It is because it's always going to be quicker, we have to be aware.

For example, sometimes we even feel it.

Like.

I know that for people in the relationship, something will happen.

They'll hear something and they'll feel that tightness in their chest, that funniness in their gut.

Right?

The key then becomes, is to say, "Okay, I am uncomfortable.

Let me hear through that that's where the mindfulness --" you almost got to try to punch through that.

"Let me be present with what they're saying, even though --" You know, it's almost like trying to listen to someone in a noisy bar at that point.

You know, when you lean in and you're like, "Okay, I'm fully concentrating on what this person saying, because -- Aaah!"

>> It's subtracting.

>> It's chaos around me, but -- So, that chaos, that sympathetic nervous system turning on, is like the noise in a bar.

So now you're really leaning in, you're looking at them.

I know, when I have that response, I literally watch their mouth, because I'm like, "Okay, I can shape out the words," and it almost gives me a totally mindful space to watch them shape the words.

It's almost like you can think of it in a movie when they go right to someone's mouth.

And so now I'm really paying attention to what they're saying, because the danger of the trigger is that we don't hear.

So it's to be aware, right?

>> We're in defense mode right away.

>> We're in freeze mode.

Our eyes become wide, the whole nine yards.

We feel that, and then we start to name it and say, "Ah, I can feel that I'm getting activated like I did before.

I've really got to listen.

Not going to -- Because we can't -- You're not going to turn that off.

That's my point.

And people say, "I've got to wait till I can turn it off."

I'm like, "Then you're going to be 117, and that's when you're going to start dating again."

Which I'm sure you're going to be -- you know, there's a great dating pool, I'm sure, no doubt.

But at that point, of the other 117-year-olds.

But, no, you can't.

Otherwise, you're forever -- Then you're living in -- you're still living in service to that relationship.

And the whole idea is to no longer live in service to your narcissistic relationship.

>> To the past relationship.

>> To the past relationship.

So the trigger then becomes -- to me, triggers our communication.

Your nervous system saying, "Whoa, something dangerous is happening."

And you're kind of saying, "I get it.

I need to listen.

This is new."

Because when you think of what post-traumatic stress is -- right?

-- it's a programming.

So if you use a classical example, I know a person got into an accident on a particular stretch of the freeway, right?

So they avoid that road.

Right?

And let's say then one day the Uber driver takes that road, and their heart is racing because that that's almost been sort of imprinted in.

But you know what?

You go down that road enough times, you set -- you don't let the racing heart say, "I can't go on this road.

Something terrible is going to happen."

You say, "Okay, I'm going to tolerate this."

Maybe you have someone in the car with you the first time.

So you can't stop living.

But you can also hear those triggers happening.

And in the new relationship, give yourself permission to communicate, not say like, "I'm being triggered, and I think you're cheating on me."

That might be a little heavy.

And say, you know, "I need a minute.

You know, in my past, X and Y happened.

So, at these moments, I know it just -- it takes me a minute.

Can you -- It's hard for me.

My trust was betrayed.

So I'm going to need time to build that trust."

I always say that in some ways, people coming out of narcissistic relationships are at an incredible advantage.

Because if you can really be honest with yourself about saying, "I'm going to ask for what I need, and if this person ain't going to give it, then maybe this isn't my person."

And time is a big one.

Narcissistic relationships are usually like this -- fast, fast, fast.

Right?

"Let's do this.

We're in love.

This is the best thing ever.

Let's move in.

Let's do this.

Let's go to Paris for three years."

Like, whatever kind of over-the-top stuff.

But time is usually a way that people can build trust.

You can see that there's a new way to respond.

A loving, kind person will say, "We're good.

We're going to take this really, really slow if you need that."

Because then that's telling you that this person's hearing you on one of many things you need someone in an intimate relationship to do.

And maybe because I'm older, I say -- I think and say these things, is that, you know, this -- Forgive me.

This is going to sound so off-color, but I'm just going to say it -- is the, um -- I call it "...-wiping test."

I need you to look at this person -- you know, everyone's young and beautiful and dating -- I want you to fast-forward to you're 85 or maybe 90, and you've -- you've snapped a hip or something.

Is this person going to wipe... and be loving about it?

And if the answer is yes, it's probably a keeper.

But if you think, like, this person's going to sneer or doesn't want to be in the hospital, no, not your person.

And I know that -- But if you're really thinking you're going to go the distance with this person, are they going to stay up all night with a kid who has diarrhea?

Are they going to wipe...?

Are they going to be okay when things are no longer okay?

Because that's where narcissistic relationships fall apart, when real life comes along.

So try...

I'll tell you now, ain't no narcissist in the world going to wipe...

Promise you that right now.

>> [ Laughs ] Yeah.

I think Esther Perel talks about the difference between a love story and a life story, or a love partner and a life partner, right?

Where it's like, you could have romance and adventure and, you know, crazy sex with a love partner, right?

But are they going to be a great life partner for you during these times you're talking about?

>> Correct.

>> There's also kind of like the -- Someone else mentioned this -- I can't remember who -- the 10,000 meal test.

Do you want to have 10,000 meals with this individual?

>> Yeah.

>> If, every other meal, they're exhausting to be around and they're ungrateful and they're gaslighting you or whatever they're doing, do you want 10,000 of these... >> I love that.

>> ...for the rest of your life?

Like, can you imagine sitting down for 10,000 meals with this person?

10,000 meals, a life story.

You know, all these things, I think, are great, but I feel like -- I'll speak from example.

I used to get caught up so much in the passion, the excitement, the chemicals of the early relationship moments.

Right?

And I used to think, "This is incredible, this feeling, this love," right?

And then six months, nine months, 12 months, it's like you start to unwind and realize, "What are our -- Do we have the same values?

And are we in alignment of what life looks like together and our lifestyle?"

And then you try to -- I tried to make it work, right?

So it was always out of alignment from the start.

And you mentioned something off-camera about, you know, when we find someone who is quote, unquote, boring... >> Hmm.

>> ...that's a great sign.

>> Especially for people with histories of trauma.

>> Yes.

>> I mean, I think that for some folks, you know, it's the -- it's the, again, the activation, the trauma bond, the sort of hot and cold is what equals love, that I need to earn love, that I constantly have to feel like I'm running faster and faster on the treadmill, becomes equated with love.

That's the "love equals chaos" kind of thing.

So, the person where it's kind of, like, flat, it's not the flatness, though.

And I think I even hate the word "boring," whereas as much as it's not volatile.

>> It's calm.

>> Right, it's calm.

>> Run towards the calm.

>> Calm is -- Those are what long-term relationships look like.

But I think people -- >> They want the chaos.

>> They want -- The chaos becomes equal -- It's not even that they want the chaos.

It's that chaos equals love.

They want love.

And so it's a rewriting of that.

Love is stable.

>> Why do they -- Why do people -- you know, I'm as guilty as anyone in the past for this -- Why do people feel loved or think it's love when there's explosiveness or there's chaos, or there's someone screaming at you and then apologizing?

And it's just this pattern.

Why does that feel like love?

Is that because we maybe saw this as a model, as our childhood from our parents?

Or why is that?

Why do some people feel that's love, where others can see, "That's not healthy.

I don't want that"?

>> Well, I mean, part of it goes to this concept of trauma bonding, which is sort of the core of the narcissistic relationship.

And in the trauma bond, it's formed by a relationship that has an alternation of good and bad, hot and cold, high and low.

So, in a way, you're sort of chasing a high, because where there's a bad day, guess what's going to come again?

Makeup sex or whatever makeup looks like, right?

Because, as a kid, what it was, was that you'd live for those good days despite all the abuse.

Then there'd be a fishing trip.

Despite all those bad days, then your parent would do something.

There'd be something so quirky and fun about them.

Or you're like, the day they do something good, now you could go back to constructing the narrative that "I come from a normal, happy family."

That is the origination of that trauma bond.

But then, in order to keep the "mindset" that the relationship is good, you have to justify, justify, justify.

You have to make sense of those bad days to fit the good day.

So the justification and the denial become big parts of the trauma-bonded theme.

Now, obviously, that trauma bond is going to play out a lot more powerfully in somebody who has that in their backstory.

Because your entire childhood was wired around, "How can I get this parent to notice me?

How can I be seen?

How can I be heard?

How can I be cherished?"

It's about a chase.

Because that child was put in the unfortunate position of believing they had to earn that, or even worse, their needs were shamed and their parent resented them for having needs.

So they learn, "Well, if I'm going to be in love, got to be quiet, can't bring up my needs.

There's going to be bad days, but then there's going to be good days.

And those bad days are because, well, maybe I was too demanding or, you know, maybe I'm expecting too much."

So a lot of it becomes self-blame-focused, and that becomes a really profound kind of connective tissue.

It's not to say, though, people who -- not everybody who gets into a trauma-bonded relationship has that history.

They're, by far, the people who are going to be more vulnerable.

But because narcissism is about such a good front gain -- right?

-- the charm, the charisma, the love-bombing -- you feel like you're in something really, really special.

But the reason narcissistic relationships are so confusing is because there's enough good days to confuse you.

And the good days are good.

>> Right.

>> I mean, they're really good.

>> They're over-the-top.

They're over-the-top, and they sort of feel perfect.

And remember -- >> You try to go back to that.

>> You go back to it, but the thing you got to remember is, sometimes those good days even stay in there years later.

You know, that it's whatever that moment is.

And narcissistic relationships are all about alignment.

If they're having a good day -- right?

-- for whatever -- maybe they had a good day at work, or maybe they flirted with someone at the gym -- you don't know what it is -- >> The narcissist.

>> The narcissist.

And you are happen to have a good day -- something good happened to you -- and then you're like, "They get me and they love me!"

No, it's just coincidence, because that's just something that's more validated for them.

And so -- And I love that analogy of the colonoscopy friend -- like, the person you call and say "Can you pick me up from this?"

And "I got to work."

You know, "Of course."

I'm thinking of friends I have.

Like, "Give me enough notice, of course I'm going to come get you."

And there's dozens of women I would do that for.

And so, when I even ran that by my partner, he got really sad.

He's like, "I don't think I have any colonoscopy friends."

>> Really?

>> Yeah, and he's like, "I gotta work on that."

And so, yeah.

Mm-hmm, yep.

>> [ Sighs ] Dr. Ramani, I appreciate you.

But I want to acknowledge you first before I ask you the final question.

I want to acknowledge you for what you just said about five minutes ago, about how, I think it was a week or two ago, and you're on therapy, you realized you're still having, you know, awakenings and growth and creating more wholeness in yourself, which is really cool to see that you're teaching the work, but you're doing the work.

>> You have to do the work.

It would be disrespectful to everyone I work with if I didn't do the work myself.

>> I appreciate it and acknowledge you for how you show up in so many ways.

You know, in private conversations with people, the way you coach people, the way you're teaching, and all the different platforms.

So it's amazing.

We need your voice.

Very grateful for you, and appreciate you for for learning and using your wisdom from experience on how to teach this stuff.

>> I appreciate that.

>> You're welcome.

And my final question -- I want people to go check the Three Truths in the previous episode.

We'll link it up.

But my final question is, if you could go back to your younger self, before the first narcissistic experience that you witnessed yourself -- you know, you probably weren't even aware of it, obviously.

But if you could go back in before that, and she was standing in front of you, whatever age that was, what are three things that you would say to her to support her in the journey she's about to experience, or to help kind of, like, you know, minimize some of the things that she was about to experience?

If you could go back with the wisdom you have, what would you say to her?

>> Um, I would say to her, "Keep getting lost in the daydreams, because they are going to happen."

And don't be afraid to change course.

And especially that last one is, "Don't be afraid to change course."

I'm somebody who went a very traditional educational route.

You know, four years of undergrads, five years of grad school, one year of the training in, like, residency kind of thing, two years of postdoc.

And there was a time in there that I thought to change course, and I didn't.

And then I became an academic, and tenure and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And when I was -- golly, I really didn't change course.

I was 55 years old, and it worked out just fine.

I landed on my feet, and -- But there was a lot of work that had to lead up to that.

There was times I was working three and four jobs.

But I would say, "Don't be afraid to change course."

I don't know what would have been different if I had changed course when I was earlier in education and knew probably there was a different path for me.

There's a lot of dreams I have and I don't know that I might ever get a chance to do.

I've always wanted to live in another country and things like that.

I don't know if those will ever happen for me.

Had I changed course, those would have.

So I would tell her, "Change course.

Like, it's okay if in the second year of grad school, you were jealous.

And we end up where we end up."

So it's, um -- I think that the path is the path.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And, um -- But I -- Yeah, those are.

But I'd say, "It's going to be okay."

And when I look at pictures of myself at that age, I'm thinking of my life exceeds anything that she would have allowed herself to think.

>> Hmm.

That's beautiful.

Dr. Ramani, thank you so much.

Appreciate it.

>> Thank you so much.

>> We hope you enjoyed this episode and found it valuable.

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