>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THAT AGENT HAD A SPLIT SECOND TO MAKE A DECISION.

>> A NATION LEFT REELING AFTER A SECOND DEADLY SHOOTING BY FEDERAL IMMIGRATION OFFICERS IN MINNEAPOLIS.

I ASKED THE CITY'S FORMER POLICE CHIEF AND REDONDO WHAT IT MEANS FOR POLICING AND PUBLIC TRUST.

AND I SPEAK TO DAVID ABOUT THE EXPANSION OF FEDERAL POWER AND THE CIVIL LIBERTIES CAUGHT IN THE CROSSFIRE.

>> ISRAEL RETRIEVES THE REMAINS OF ITS LAST HOSTAGE HELD IN GAZA.

WE HAVE THE DETAILS FROM JERUSALEM.

ALSO AHEAD.

>> IT'S ONLY WEDNESDAY THE SOCIETY BROUGHT --THAT SOCIETY HE STANDS UP THAT YOU HAVE RESISTANCE.

>> THE ATTACK ON ACADEMIC FREEDOM AND WHY AMERICA'S FUTURE DEPENDS ON IT.

FORMER COLUMBIA PRESIDENT LEE BOLLINGER TALKS ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK, UNIVERSITY, A RECKONING.

>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY , THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS , CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI- SEMITISM.

THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND .

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN , COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITY.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE, I AM BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

WE BEGIN TO MINNEAPOLIS WHERE OUTRAGE IS DEEPENING AND PROTESTS HAVE INTENSIFIED AFTER ANOTHER DEADLY SHOOTING.

37-YEAR-OLD REGISTERED KNOWS NURSE ALEX PRETTI WAS KILLED BY BORDER ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS.

DETAILS OF WHAT UNFOLDED IS DIVIDING THE COUNTRY.

OFFICIALS WERE QUICK TO CLAIM THAT PRETTI PROVIDED A THREAT TO OFFICERS WHO RESTRAINED AND THEN KILLED THEM BUT BYSTANDER VIDEOS CONTRADICT THE CLAIM.

A WARNING, THIS VIDEO IS DISTURBING.

>> [ WHISTLING ] >> THAT IS POLICE BRUTALITY.

THEY ARE KICKING THEM IN THE FACE.

[ GUNSHOTS ] >> CALL IN SECURITY SECRETARY-- HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY KRISTI KNOW I'M NOEM SAID HE INTENDED TO KILL LAW ENFORCEMENT.

THOSE WHO KNEW ALEX PRETTI DESCRIBED THEM AS A DEVOTED COLLEAGUE , A FRIENDLY NEIGHBOR AND A MAN WHO CARED DEEPLY FOR HIS COUNTRY.

AS TENSION RISES IN MINNEAPOLIS LOCAL POLICE FEAR THAT THE CITY MAY BE HEADING DOWN THE SAME SPIRAL THAT BEGAN IN 2020 AFTER THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD.

LET'S BRING IN THE CITY'S FORMER CHIEF OF POLICE MEDARIA AREDONDO TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THIS.

THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME.

WE ARE COMING UP ON THE SIXTH ANNIVERSARY OF THE KILLING OF GEORGE FLOYD IN YOUR CITY.

YOU ARE CHIEF OF POLICE AT THE TIME OF HIS KILLING.

THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF RESOURCES, A LOT OF TIME, BLOOD SWEAT AND TEARS INVESTED IN RESTORING TRUST INTO THAT COMMUNITY FROM THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND LOCAL RESIDENTS THERE.

ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT THE PAST FEW WEEKS WILL UNDO ALL OF THE WORK THAT HAS BEEN DONE TO REPAIR THAT RELATIONSHIP?

>> BIANNA THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

YES, I AM CONCERNED.

WHAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW ON THE GROUND HERE IN MINNEAPOLIS, BIANNA, IN PARTS OF THE COUNTRY SEEING THIS UNFOLD IS A CRISIS OF CREDIBILITY.

MANY FOLKS INCLUDING IN THE LAW ENFORCEMENT PROFESSIONALS AROUND THE COUNTRY ARE QUESTIONING THE TRUTHFULNESS OF THE DHS STATEMENTS RELATED TO MISTER PRETTI 'S SHOOTING AND KILLING DEATH AS IT RELATES TO WHAT WE SEE IN THE VIDEOS, AND AS HE MENTIONED MINNEAPOLIS IS A CITY THAT HAS BEEN TRYING TO HEAL FROM THE PAIN AND TRAUMA OF ALMOST 6 YEARS AGO MARKING THE KILLING OF MISTER GEORGE FLOYD AND NOW WHAT IS OCCURRING WITH BOTH MISS RENE GOOD'S -- RENEE GOOD'S KILLING AND ALEX PRETTI TWO WEEKS AFTER, IT IS CREATING A TENSE SITUATION AND AGAIN, A CREDIBILITY OF A CRISIS.

>> IN TERMS OF THE RELATIONSHIP AND ANY TENSIONS ARISING FROM THE IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT AGENTS, THE BORDER PATROL, THE ICE AGENTS AND THE LOCAL POLICE THERE, WE'VE SEEN AN INFLUX OF SOME 3000 AGENTS OVER THE LAST FEW WEEKS RELATIVE TO ROUGHLY 600 POLICE OFFICERS IN MINNEAPOLIS.

FROM WHAT YOU ARE HEARING FROM THOSE OFFICERS WHO YOU SERVED WITH, HOW ARE THEY RESPONDING TO THIS AND WHAT IS THE CONCERN ABOUT THE POTENTIAL OF ADDED FRICTION BETWEEN THESE TWO SEPARATE, ONE STATE AND ONE FEDERAL, LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY ?

WE ARE ALREADY HAVING OFFICIALS CASTING BLAME ON LOCAL POLICE THERE FOR NOT DOING ENOUGH AND RESPONDING QUICKLY ENOUGH TO SOME OF THESE PROTESTS.

>> BIANNA, GREAT QUESTION.

THERE ARE THREE THINGS THAT FOLKS ON THE GROUND LOCALLY, OFFICIALS ARE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT.

ONE IS, FIRST AND FOREMOST, THERE HAS NOT BEEN THIS TRADITIONAL COOPERATION IN COMMUNICATION THAT FEDERAL PARTNERS AND LOCAL DEPARTMENTS HAVE HAD STANDING FOR MANY YEARS.

I HAD A GREAT WORKING RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR FEDERAL PARTNERS DURING MY TIME IN SERVICE AS CHIEF OF POLICE.

THAT MAKES IT INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT PARTICULARLY WHEN YOU'RE DEALING WITH THESE HIGH PROFILE, TRAGIC INCIDENTS.

THE OTHER THING IS BIANNA, MORE DOES NOT MEAN BETTER.

THE SITUATION THAT IS ALREADY TENSE, ADDING AN ADDITIONAL -- ADDING AN ADDITIONAL FEDERAL AGENTS WITHIN THE CITY, IT IS INCREASING THE UNCERTAINTY AND FEAR FOR MANY OF THE RESIDENTS, AND I WOULD ALSO JUST SAY THAT MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT RIGHT NOW IS STAFFED AT 600 PERSONNEL.

THEY ARE STRETCHED THIN.

MINNEAPOLIS POLICE CHIEF O'HARA HAS MENTIONED THAT.

THEY STILL HAVE THE MAIN RESPONSIBILITY OF PROVIDING 911 SERVICE AND WHEN THEY HAVE TO RESPOND SORT OF INTERMITTENTLY TO THESE INCIDENTS THAT FLAREUP WITHIN THE CITY INVOLVING ICE AGENTS, IT REALLY HAMPERS THEIR EFFECTIVENESS TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE PRIORITIZING SERVICE FOR THEIR RESIDENTS.

>> WE WANT TO REMIND VIEWERS THAT A FEDERAL JUDGE IN MINNEAPOLIS IS HEARING AN ARGUMENT TO CONSIDER WHETHER OR NOT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION 'S SEARCH IS VIOLATING STATE SOVEREIGNTY SO THAT IS WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW AND WE WILL TALK ABOUT THAT WITH MY NEXT GUEST.

BUT I DO WANT TO PLAY SOME SOUND FROM HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY NOEM AND THE HOMELAND SECURITY DIRECTOR OVER THE WEEKEND WHO RIGHT AFTER THE SHOOTING WHEN LITTLE INFORMATION WAS KNOWN OTHER THAN THE VIDEO THAT WAS ALREADY PUT ONLINE, THEY PUBLICLY LABELED PRETTI AND AREN'T SUSPECT AND DESCRIBED THE ENCOUNTER AS SELF-DEFENSE.

LET'S PLAY SOUND FROM BOTH OF THEM.

>> AN INDIVIDUAL APPROACHED US BORDER PATROL OFFICERS WITH A 9 MM SEMI AUTOMATIC HANDGUN.

THE OFFICERS ATTEMPTED TO DISARM THIS INDIVIDUAL BUT THE ARMED SUSPECT REARRESTED -- REACTED VIOLENTLY.

FEARING FOR HIS LIFE AND THE LIVES OF THE FELLOW OFFICERS AROUND HIM AND AGENT FIRE DEFENSIVE SHOTS.

>> THE SUSPECT ALSO HAD TWO LOADED MAGAZINES AND NO ACCESSIBLE ID.

THIS LOOKS LIKE A SITUATION WHERE AN INDIVIDUAL WANTED TO DO MAXIMUM DAMAGE AND MASSACRE LAW ENFORCEMENT.

>> SO FIRST OF ALL WE'VE SEEN MULTIPLE ANGLES OF THIS INCIDENT BETWEEN HE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT AND IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE MATCHING WHAT WE HEARD FROM SECRETARY NOEM OR FROM GREG NOEM FIVE.

OUTSIDE OF THAT IS IT STANDARD PROTOCOL IN THE MINUTES OR HOURS AFTER SHOOTING LIKE THIS, TO HAVE THE HEADS OF THESE AGENCIES CAST SUCH BLAME ALREADY ON THE, THEY CALL HIM A SUSPECT.

I DON'T EVEN KNOW.

IS THAT THE RIGHT TERM?

WOULD HE BE DESCRIBED AS A SUSPECT AT THIS POINT?

>> YEAH, WELL TRADITIONALLY AND TYPICALLY WHEN YOU HAVE A HIGH PROFILE CRIME INVESTIGATION , YOU ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE THOSE TYPES OF STATEMENTS PARTICULARLY WHEN THERE HAS BEEN NO INVESTIGATION COMPLETED.

THE OTHER PROBLEM YOU RUN INTO IS, IF YOU MAKE THOSE STATEMENTS YOU HAVE TO SORT OF OWN THEM SO IF YOU ARE RELEASING VIDEO THAT APPEARS TO BE CONTRADICTING THE VERY SAME STATEMENTS YOU ARE MAKING, THAT IS A PROBLEM AND THAT'S WHERE WE HAVE THIS CRISIS OF CREDIBILITY RIGHT NOW.

>> I WANT TO PLAY THE VIDEO FOR OUR VIEWERS AGAIN .

WE WILL PLAY TWO DIFFERENT VERSIONS AND ANGLES AND THE FIRST QUESTION I WANT TO ASK IS ABOUT THE PEPPER SPRAY THAT HAPPENS WHERE PRETTI IS SPRAYED BY OFFICERS BEFORE HE IS ACTUALLY TAKEN TO THE GROUND AND SHOT.

LET'S PUT THE VIDEO UP.

YOU SEE A WOMAN WHO IS SHOVED TO THE GROUND.

THERE YOU SEE ALEX PRETTI STEPPING UP TO HELP HER , AND AGENT THEN BEGINS DEPLOYING PEPPER SPRAY AT CLOSE RANGE.

IS THAT CONSISTENT IN AND OF ITSELF, THE SPRAYING OF PEPPER SPRAY AT CLOSE RANGE, WITH POLICE TRAINING?

>> WITH LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENT ACROSS THE COUNTRY YOU ARE TAUGHT DE-ESCALATION.

USING THAT SORT OF TACTIC WITH USING THE PEPPER SPRAY, THAT WOULD SEEM TO ESCALATE SITUATIONS.

THERE'S A LOT OF TRAINING THAT LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENTS AND THE MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT DOES WHEN THEY ARE HANDLING SITUATIONS OF CROWD CONTROL.

THAT WOULD BE A SITUATION THAT WOULD BE DEEMED, YOUR KIND OF ESCALATING THINGS AND NOT DE- ESCALATING.

>> WE ALSO KNOW THAT ALEX PRETTI HAD IN HIS HAND A PHONE AND HE WAS ALSO ARMED.

HE WAS LICENSED TO CARRY A FIREARM IN MINNESOTA.

IT DOES ALLOW FOR CONCEALED CARRY , SO THE QUESTION THEN TURNS TO WHEN THESE OFFICERS BECAME AWARE OF HIS FIREARM, LET'S SHOW THE VIDEO THEN AFTER HE IS TAKEN TO THE GROUND AND SPRAYED.

THERE YOU SEE AT LEAST HALF A DOZEN AGENTS SURROUND PRETTI, FORCING HIM PRONE.

AT WHAT POINT IN YOUR VIEW AND WATCHING THIS VIDEO, DOES HE STILL POSE A THREAT TO OFFICERS?

YOU SEE ONE OF THEM REMOVE HIS GUN AND WALK AWAY BUT IT SEEMS THAT THE MORE OFFICERS THAT ARE THERE THE MORE CHAOTIC THE SCENE ACTUALLY BECOMES BEFORE THEY START SHOOTING AT HIM.

>> YEAH.

SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE VIDEO, WHEN I OBSERVE THE VIDEO AND I THINK OF STATEMENTS FROM DHS, FIRST OF ALL CLAIMING MISTER PRETTI WAS ATTACKING LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS, I DON'T SEE THAT WITH THE VIDEO THAT THEY HAVE RELEASED.

ALSO IT'S BEEN MENTIONED, HE WAS A LICENSED CONCEAL AND CARRY OWNER WHICH IS LEGAL IN MINNESOTA.

AND MORE SO WHEN IT APPEARS THAT ONE AGENTS REMOVES WHAT APPEARS TO BE THE FIREARM THAT MISTER PRETTI OWNED, THAT IS TAKING PLACE AT LEAST WITH THE VIDEO THAT I HAVE SEEN AND WHAT CNN HAS RELEASED, BEFORE THE SHOTS RANG OUT.

SO YOU HAVE TO ASK, A REASONABLE OFFICER HAS TO ASK WHAT WAS THE THREAT WHERE YOU WOULD NEED TO USE DEADLY FORCE ON MISTER PRETTI AND THAT IS WHAT'S IN CONFLICT WITH WHAT DHS STATEMENTS ARE AND WHAT YOU VISUALLY SEE IN THAT VIDEO.

>> YOU MENTIONED THAT POLICE OFFICERS ARE TRAINED TO DE- ESCALATE IN A SITUATION LIKE THIS AND I WANT TO PLAY A SOUND FROM YOUR SUCCESSOR THE CURRENT MINNEAPOLIS POLICE CHIEF BRIAN O'HARA FROM OVER THE WEEKEND WHO MADE CLEAR THAT OFFICERS FIND THEMSELVES ROUTINELY IN DANGEROUS SITUATIONS, IN SITUATIONS WHERE THEY HAVE TO REMOVE GUNS FROM SUSPECTS , AS WELL, AND HERE'S HOW HE DESCRIBED HOW THEY ARE TRAINED TO HANDLE THESE TYPES OF SITUATIONS.

>> PEOPLE HAVE HAD ENOUGH.

THIS IS THE THIRD SHOOTING NOW IN LESS THAN THREE WEEKS.

THE MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT WENT THE ENTIRE YEAR LAST YEAR RECOVERING ABOUT 900 GUNS FROM THE STREET, ARRESTING HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF VIOLENT OFFENDERS AND WE DIDN'T SHOOT ANYONE.

>> HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE CONTRAST FROM WHAT YOU HEARD THERE FROM THE POLICE CHIEF?

I WOULD IMAGINE THE SAME APPLIED TO WHEN YOU WERE CHIEF OF POLICE, AND WHAT WE'VE SEEN PLAY OUT IN NOT ONE BUT NOW TWO SHOOTINGS?

>> YEAH, TO WHAT CHIEF O'HARA OF THE MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT NOTED, HIS OFFICERS, HIS MEN AND WOMEN, THEY WORK THAT COMMUNITY DAY IN AND DAY OUT.

THEY RESPOND TO A WIDE RANGE OF CALLS FROM WHETHER IT'S PROTESTING TO DOMESTICS TO TRAFFIC STOPS.

THEY ARE TRAINED EXTENSIVELY IN DE-ESCALATION.

SO THEY ARE ABLE TO USE THAT AND USE THOSE TOOLS AND THAT TRAINING TO EFFECTIVELY BUILD TRUST WITH THEIR COMMUNITIES.

I'M NOT SURE, QUITE HONESTLY, THE TYPE OF TRAINING THOSE FEDERAL AGENTS HAVE.

IT IS CERTAINLY SEEMING TO GO AGAINST WHAT LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENTS WOULD TRAIN , AND BY THE WAY IF THEY ARE NOT ALSO COMMUNICATING WITH LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENT, IT'S A RECIPE FOR THESE TRAGEDIES TO HAPPEN AND SADLY TO CONTINUE TO HAPPEN IF IT'S NOT ADDRESSED.

>> IT IS INTERESTING HOW THE WHITE HOUSE, HOW PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS RESPONDED TO THIS SHOOTING RELATIVE TO THE SHOOTING OF RENEE GOOD.

HE SAID THERE IS AN INVESTIGATION GOING ON AND HE ALSO SENT TOM HOMAN TO MINNEAPOLIS AND SAID HE WILL BE REPORTING DIRECTLY TO HIM.

THERE HAD BEEN SOME REPORTS OF PERHAPS SOME TENSION BETWEEN KRISTI NOEM AND TOM HOMAN PERHAPS THAT HE IS --SHE IS MARGINALIZING HIS ROLE.

AND THEN THERE WAS THIS POST ON TRUTH SOCIAL THAT THE PRESIDENT PUT UP MOMENTS AGO WHERE HE SAID GOVERNOR TIM WALZ CALLED ME WITH THE REQUEST TO WORK TOGETHER WITH RESPECT TO MINNESOTA.

IT WAS A VERY GOOD CALL.

WE ACTUALLY SEEM TO BE ON A SIMILAR WAVELENGTH.

AND THEN SAID THAT HE IS HAPPY THAT THERE IS SO MUCH TREMENDOUS SUCCESS IN WASHINGTON, DC, IN MEMPHIS, NEW ORLEANS, OTHER PLACES THERE HAVE BEEN FEDERAL OFFICERS DEPLOYED.

BUT WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS LANGUAGE FROM THE PRESIDENT?

DOES THAT SUGGEST TO YOU THAT GIVEN THE REACTION HE IS SEEING NATIONWIDE FROM DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS THAT HE IS ALSO AWARE THAT THINGS NEED TO DE- ESCALATE QUICKLY?

>> YEAH, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I AM HEARING THIS.

THANK YOU FOR SHARING THAT INFORMATION.

I THINK CERTAINLY THE FOLKS IN THE STATE OF MINNESOTA HAVE BEEN LOOKING TO TRY TO DE- ESCALATE THIS SITUATION TO NOT HAVE FEDERAL AGENTS, ICE DOING THIS OPERATION.

IT SOUNDS TO ME FROM THE PRESIDENT'S STATEMENT AND HAVING THAT COMMUNICATION THAT THEY ARE TRYING TO SEEK SOME COMMON GROUND.

I THINK IT'S CLEAR THE OPTICS AND THE MESSAGING COMING OUT OF MINNEAPOLIS AND CERTAINLY MINNESOTA WITH FEDERAL AGENTS, THE RECENT DEATHS OF MISS GOOD AND MISTER PRETTI, IT'S BAD.

IT'S NOT GOING WELL IN TERMS OF THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION.

SO IF THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY WITH THE STATEMENT THAT YOU JUST READ FROM THE PRESIDENT AND THE GOVERNOR TO COME TO SOME SORT OF OFFRAMP OR MUTUAL AGREEMENT, THAT WILL LESSEN THE RISK OF THESE TRAGEDIES FROM HAPPENING AND I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT AS A WAY TO MOVE FORWARD.

>> ON A PERSONAL NOTE I'M JUST WONDERING HOW THIS HAS BEEN FOR YOU THIS PAST MONTH JUST AS A CIVILIAN NOW NOT COMMANDING A POLICE OFFICE AND OTHER OFFICERS, BUT ACTUALLY AS A FORMER OFFICER YOURSELF , JUST WATCHING ALL OF THIS PLAY OUT IN A CITY THAT I KNOW YOU LOVE AND A COMMUNITY YOU'VE INVESTED A LOT OF TIME IN AS WELL.

>> YOU KNOW, MY HEART IS STILL HERE WITH MINNEAPOLIS.

THIS COMMUNITY, IT'S STRONG, IT'S RESILIENT.

I KNOW YOU PROBABLY KNOW A COUPLE DAYS AGO IT WAS -30, 30,000 PEOPLE WENT OUTSIDE TO PEACEFULLY PROTEST AND ASSEMBLE JUST TO BE IN COMMUNITY WITH EACH OTHER.

THAT IS ALL THAT MINNESOTANS ARE.

I ALSO THINK ABOUT THE MEN AND WOMEN WHO WEAR THAT UNIFORM WHO WILL BE HERE IN OUR COMMUNITY'S LONG AFTER THE FEDERAL OPERATION ENDS AND THAT TRUST, THEY NEED TO BUILD THOSE RELATIONSHIPS EACH AND EVERY DAY.

I KNOW IT'S HARD ON THEM, CHIEF O'HARA'S DEPARTMENT IS LIMITED, SO I DO HOPE AND FROM YOUR STATEMENT YOU JUST READ TODAY FROM THE PRESIDENT, I HOPE THAT THIS IS A NEW PATHWAY AND SORT OF A MIDDLE ROADWAY FOR THEM TO COME TO SOME SORT OF ARRANGEMENT WHERE THERE CAN BE SOME SORT OF PEACE MOVING FORWARD HERE.

>> I JUST HAVE TO SAY AS AN AMERICAN, I LIVE IN ANOTHER STATE BUT WE ARE ALL AMERICANS HERE SO NONE OF THIS IS SOMETHING ANYBODY WANTS TO SEE PLAY OUT ON THE STREETS OF A COUNTRY WE ALL LOVE SO DEARLY.

MEDARIA ARRADONDO, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE TIME.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> NOW AS AMERICA WATCHES THE SURGE OF FEDERAL IMMIGRATION OFFICERS IN MINNEAPOLIS QUESTIONS ARE MOUNTING ABOUT THE LEGALITY AND CONSTITUTIONALITY OF THEIR ACTIONS.

NEW YORK TIMES POLLING TAKEN JUST BEFORE ALEX PRETTI 'S KILLING FINDS THAT A MAJORITY OF AMERICAN VOTERS BELIEVE THAT ICE HAS GONE TOO FAR AND NOW SOME SENATE DEMOCRATS ARE VOWING TO BLOCK A SENATE FUNDING PACKAGE WHICH IS A MOVE LIKELY TO SPARK A GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN AT THE END OF THE WEEK.

THE NEXT GUEST HAS BEEN SOUNDING THE ALARM ABOUT THE DANGERS OF EXPANDING THE BUDGET AND THE MISSION OF ICE.

DAVID BIER IS THE DIRECTOR OF AND MINISTRATION STUDIES JOINING ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON, DC.

I KNOW THAT YOU ARE LISTENING TO MY CONVERSATION WITH THE POLICE CHIEF AND ALSO HEARD THE POST THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP PUT ON TRUTH SOCIAL ABOUT HIS CONVERSATION WITH GOVERNOR TIM WALZ IN AN ATTEMPT TO DE- ESCALATE , IS HOPEFULLY HELP PEOPLE ARE INTERPRETING THIS , AND PERHAPS IT IS RELATED TO THE POTENTIAL BUDGETARY CRISIS IN THE GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN WE MAY SEE IN A FEW DAYS TIME WITH DEMOCRAT SAYING AFTER WHAT HAS PLAYED OUT THEY WILL NOT VOTE IN FAVOR OF FUNDING THESE PROGRAMS.

LET ME ASK YOU YOUR REACTION TO WHAT WE HAVE BEEN SEEING IN THIS DEBATE OVER THE INFRINGEMENT OF STATE RIGHTS AND THE SURGE OF TROOPS, SOME 3000 FAR OUTNUMBERING THE POLICE FORCE THERE IN MINNEAPOLIS.

>> THAT'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THIS IS HAPPENING FOR TWO REASONS.

ONE, MINNEAPOLIS HAS BEEN SINGLED OUT AMONG ALL CITIES AND LOCATIONS IN THE UNITED STATES .

IT REALLY DOES NOT HAVE VERY MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE COUNTRY LEGALLY.

THIS IS A REACTION TO SOME FRAUD ALLEGATIONS DEALING WITH SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE LARGELY IN THE UNITED STATES LEGALLY , EITHER REFUGEE STATUS, LEGAL PERMANENT RESIDENT 'S OR US CITIZENS.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT ARRESTING PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY ILLEGALLY.

THE OTHER REASON THIS IS HAPPENING IS THAT THEY HAVE TAKEN BORDER PATROL WHO IS SUPPOSED TO BE PATROLLING THE US AND MEXICO BORDER, AND MOVED THEM 1500 MILES NORTH TO MINNEAPOLIS WERE NOW THEY ARE ON OUR STREETS.

YOU POINTED OUT THE NUMBER OF AGENTS IS SO DISPROPORTIONATE TO ANYTHING THAT COULD BE CONSIDERED A LEGITIMATE LAW ENFORCEMENT PURPOSE HERE THAT YOU HAVE LITERALLY DOZENS OF AGENTS ON THE STREETS PATROLLING AND NOT HAVING ANYTHING TO DO EXCEPT INTERACT WITH BYSTANDERS AND OBSERVERS AND OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE WATCHING THEIR ACTIVITIES.

THE RESULT IS THESE TRAGIC INCIDENTS WHERE PEOPLE ARE BEING HARASSED AND ASSAULTED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT FOR EXERCISING THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS EITHER PROTESTING OR IN THE CASE OF ALEX HE WAS AN OBSERVER.

HE WAS THERE TO DOCUMENT THE OPERATION THAT WAS HAPPENING, WHAT THESE AGENTS WERE DOING.

HE WAS TAKING VIDEO, HE WAS NOT TRYING TO INTERFERE IN ANY WAY AND NOT REALLY EVEN TRYING TO PROTEST.

HE WAS THERE AS A LEGAL OBSERVER WHICH IS HIS CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT AND THEY APPROACHED HIM WHICH RESULTED IN ULTIMATELY HIS DEATH.

THAT IS REALLY WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE, THAT MINNEAPOLIS HAS BEEN SINGLED OUT.

THE OTHER THING TO NOTE IS THAT IT'S NOT RANDOM, IT'S NOT UNEXPECTED THAT THEY ARE APPROACHING THESE BY 10 BYSTANDERS AND PEOPLE OBSERVING THEM.

THEY HAVE SAID THAT VIDEOING AND FILMING THESE ICE OPERATIONS, THESE BORDER PATROL OPERATIONS IS ILLEGAL.

IS AGAINST THE LAW.

IS IMPEDING AND :SING THEIR AGENTS.

WHEN YOU HAVE THE MINDSET COMING FROM THE HEAD OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY SAYING THIS IS A LEGAL AND WHAT THESE INDIVIDUALS ARE DOING ON THE STREET IS A THREAT TO YOU , THEN YOU ARE GOING TO INTERACT WITH THEM IN A VERY HOSTILE WAY AND THAT'S WHAT WE'VE SEEN.

SO YOU REALLY NEED TO CHANGE THE ENTIRE DYNAMIC BY FOCUSING ON THE LEGITIMATE PURPOSE OF LAW ENFORCEMENT WHICH IS TO PROTECT OUR RIGHTS AGAINST PEOPLE WHO WOULD DO US HARM, VIOLENT PEOPLE, PEOPLE WHO WOULD VIOLATE OUR RIGHTS IN OTHER WAYS.

>> TO BE CLEAR WE DON'T KNOW THE INTENTION OF ALEX PRETTI LEADING UP TO WHAT WAS DOCUMENTED ON VIDEO.

WE DON'T KNOW IF HE INTENDED TO PROTEST.

THE OFFICERS THERE WOULD SUGGEST THAT HE WAS INTERVENING IN WHAT WAS HAPPENING THERE AND IT DOES APPEAR HE IS STEPPING IN TO HELP SOMEONE WHO HAD FALLEN AND WAS PUSHED TO THE GROUND.

THAT HAVING BEEN SAID HE ALSO DIDN'T APPEAR TO BE BRANDISHING A WEAPON OR SEEM TO BE A MAJOR THREAT TO LAW ENFORCEMENT AS HAD BEEN DESCRIBED BY KRISTI NOEM AND OTHERS.

AS WE STATED A FEDERAL JUDGE RIGHT NOW IN MINNEAPOLIS IS HEARING WHETHER OR NOT TO CONSIDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S SURGE OF THOUSANDS OF THESE FEDERAL OFFICERS , A VIOLATION OF STATE SOVEREIGNTY.

THE TRUMPET MINISTRATION IS CALLED THE LEGAL THEORY A FUNDAMENTAL MISREADING OF THE 10th AMENDMENT AND FROM THE EARLY REPORTING IN TERMS OF THE LINE OF QUESTIONING FROM THIS JUDGE IT DOES APPEAR THAT SHE IS ALSO SKEPTICAL OF THIS ARGUMENT.

WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ABOUT THIS QUESTION OVER WHAT RIGHTS FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT HAVE OVER STATE SOVEREIGNTY?

>> THIS GOES BACK TO THE FOUNDING ERA CONCERNS OF HAVING A FEDERAL POLICE FORCE, HAVING A STANDING ARMY, ABOUT HAVING PEOPLE WHO ARE UNACCOUNTABLE TO THE LOCALITY IN WHICH THEY ARE OPERATING, WHICH IS REALLY THE CASE HERE, THESE PEOPLE HAVE NO ACCOUNTABILITY TO THE RESIDENCE OF MINNEAPOLIS.

THEY DON'T REALLY WORRY ABOUT THE POPULARITY OF THEIR OPERATION THERE.

THE END RESULT IS THEY ARE OPERATING IN A WAY THAT THEY NEVER WOULD OPERATE IF THE VOTERS OF MINNEAPOLIS HAD A SAY.

SO THERE IS A CONFLICT HERE, A REAL CONFLICT.

IT WAS ONE THAT THE FOUNDERS WERE WORRIED ABOUT.

UNFORTUNATELY WE'VE CREATED A GOVERNMENT THAT IS SO LARGE AND HAS SO MANY POWERS AND SO MANY DUTIES THAT ULTIMATELY WE REALLY GONE SO FAR BEYOND WHAT THE FOUNDERS IMAGINED THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WOULD BE DOING AND THIS IS JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE WITH IMMIGRATION POLICY.

>> AND REALLY A QUESTION OF OUR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS AND NOW SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS BECAUSE WE HAVE GUN RIGHTS GROUPS WARNING THAT THESE HEAVILY MILITARIZED FEDERAL AGENTS ARE OPERATING AMONGST ARMED CIVILIANS WHO HAVE A LEGAL RIGHT AND AS IN THE CASE OF ALEX PRETTI, WAS A LICENSED GUN OWNER AND AGAIN IN THE STATE WHERE YOU COULD WALK WITH , IT WAS LEGAL TO WALK WITH HIS WEAPON AS WELL, HE DID NOT APPEAR TO BE BRANDISHING IT IN FRONT OF THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS, I'D LIKE TO PLAY A SOUND OF WHAT GREG BOVINO SAID ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

>> WE RESPECT THAT SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHT BUT THOSE RIGHTS DON'T COUNT WHEN YOU WRITE IT AND ASSAULT, DELAY, OBSTRUCT AND IMPEDE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS.

IT'S TOO BAD THAT CONSEQUENT AS HAD TO BE PAID BECAUSE HE INJECTED HIMSELF INTO THAT CRIME SCENE.

>> DO THESE OPERATIONS CREATE A SECOND AMENDMENT CONFLICT THAT THE COURTS HAVEN'T EVEN FULLY BEGUN TO GRAPPLE WITH?

>> I MEAN, BEFORE TODAY THE STATEMENTS THAT ARE COMING OUT NOT JUST FROM NOEM FIVE AT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ABOUT OUR RIGHT TO CARRY ARMS DURING A PROTEST, ABSOLUTELY FUNDAMENTAL SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHT, FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT TO DO SO.

WE SAW THAT BE CARRIED OUT NUMEROUS TIMES THROUGHOUT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION PROTEST .

YOU HAD INDIVIDUALS CARRYING ARMS.

IT IS AN ABSOLUTE IRONCLAD RIGHT THAT WE ALL ENJOY , SO THE IDEA THAT THE FACT THAT HE HAD A GUN IS AND OF ITSELF SOME REASON WHY HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN APPROACHED OR SHOULD HAVE BEEN ASSAULTED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT MAKES NO SENSE, HAS NO LEGAL OR CONSTITUTIONAL BASIS TO IT.

THE ACTUAL OFFICIAL STATEMENT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY ON THIS INCIDENT IS, HE APPROACHED LAW ENFORCEMENT WITH HIS GUN .

AND THEN THEY SAID THEY TRIED TO DISARM HIM.

WE'VE ALL SEEN THE VIDEO, IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THAT AT ALL.

HIS GUN IS CONCEALED, HE'S NOT REALLY APPROACHING THEM AS MUCH AS THEY ARE APPROACHING HIM , BUT THAT IS THEIR OFFICIAL POSITION.

IF YOU WALK DOWN THE STREET AND YOU END UP APPROACHING AN OFFICER THEY CAN STOP AND TRY TO DISARM YOU.

OF COURSE THAT'S GOING TO RESULT IN PEOPLE DYING, IF YOU TRY TO ASSAULT THE SECOND AMENDMENT IN THAT WAY.

>> ATTORNEY GENERAL PAM BONDI OVER THE WEEKEND SAID ALL OF THESE CAN IN.

ICE AGENTS WILL LEAVE THE STATE OF MINNESOTA IF THE STATE TURNS OVER ALL WELFARE DATA, VOTER ROLLS AND AN END TO CENTURY POLICIES.

GOVERNOR WALZ CALLED THIS A PROVOCATION.

IS THIS A LEGITIMATE LAW ENFORCEMENT REQUEST IN YOUR VIEW?

>> NO, NOT AT ALL.

THIS IS GETTING AT THE STRONGEST PART IN MY OPINION OF MINNEAPOLIS AND MINNESOTA'S CASE HERE, THE FACT THAT THEY ARE TRYING TO CLEARLY COERCE THE STATE INTO TOTALLY CHANGING LAWS AND POLICIES BY IMPOSING THIS MANY AGENTS ON THE STREET AND CONDUCTING THESE CHAOTIC OPERATIONS WHICH ARE NOT PROTECTING PUBLIC SAFETY, THEY ARE CAUSING MORE PROBLEMS FOR PUBLIC SAFETY AND DIVERTING STATE RESOURCES AND LAW ENFORCEMENT RESOURCES INTO THIS.

SO NO, IT IS NOT A PUBLIC SAFETY -FOCUSED MISSION.

WE KNOW WHO IS BEING ARRESTED BY IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT.

JUST 5% OF THE PEOPLE ENTERING DETENTION FACILITIES THIS YEAR HAD ANY VIOLENT CRIMINAL CONVICTION.

THE IDEA THAT THIS IT -- THAT THIS IS ABOUT PROTECTING THE PUBLIC FROM VIOLENT CRIMINALS IS NOT BORNE OUT BY WHAT ICE IS DOING RIGHT NOW.

THERE'S A SERIOUS CONCERN THAT THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT AND THIS IS ABOUT SOMETHING POLITICAL.

>> QUICKLY IN THE NEWS WE JUST GOT FROM THE PRESIDENT POSTING ABOUT HIS PRODUCTIVE CONVERSATION WITH GOVERNOR TIM WALZ, DO YOU FIND THAT REASSURING IN TERMS OF DE- ESCALATING?

>> NO COCA WE'VE HEARD SIMILAR TYPES OF WALK BACKS FROM THE PRESIDENT BEFORE.

HE IS THE ONE WHO SENT ALL OF THESE AGENTS TO MINNESOTA.

HE IS THE ONE WHO SAID IT WOULD BE RETRIBUTION FOR ESSENTIALLY NOT SUPPORTING HIM AND HIS POLICIES.

THIS IS A PRESIDENT WHO HAS CONSISTENTLY FOLLOWED JUST ONE PATH AND THAT IS A PATH TO HAVE IMMIGRATION CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT UNCHANGED FROM ANY LEVEL OF ACCOUNTABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY AND I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT WE WILL SEE A SERIOUS CHANGE IN POLICY AS A RESULT OF THIS.

>> DAVID BIER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE TIME.

>> WE TURN NEXT TO ISRAEL WHICH ANNOUNCED TODAY IT HAS RECOVERED REMAINS OF THE FINAL ISRAELI HOSTAGE HELD IN GAZA.

RON, A POLICE OFFICER WHO WAS KILLED AND ABDUCTED DURING THE ATTACKS , HIS RECOVERY MARKS THE FIRST TIME SINCE 2014 THAT THERE ARE NO ISRAELI HOSTAGES LIVING OR DECEASED INSIDE THE PALESTINIAN ENCLAVE.

THE GOVERNMENT HAD MADE THE RETURN OF ALL HOSTAGES, A CONDITION FOR REOPENING THE RAFAH CROSSING ADVANCING TO THE SECOND STAGE OF THE PEACE FRAMEWORK .

WE ARE JOINED FROM JERUSALEM WITH MORE ON THIS.

IF WE JUST REFLECT ON THIS MOMENT, THE SYMBOLISM HERE, FINALLY CLOSURE FOR THESE HOSTAGE FAMILIES, FOR RON'S FAMILY, FOR THE REMAINING HOSTAGES HELD IN GAZA, TALK ABOUT THE FEELING AMONGST ISRAELI'S OF THIS MILESTONE.

>> IN MANY WAYS, BIANNA, THIS NOT ONLY MARKS CLOSURE FOR THE FAMILY ABOUT THE ISRAELIS AS A WHOLE.

THIS IS A NATION THAT KNEW THE NAMES OF ALMOST EVERY SINGLE HOSTAGE BY HEART.

THEY HAVE HELD THOSE NAMES IN THEIR HEARTS FOR 843 DAYS WITH RON VELEY BEING THE LAST TODAY.

843 DAYS AFTER OCTOBER 7, NOT ONLY HAVE ALL OF THE HOSTAGES WHO WERE TAKEN ON THAT DAY NOW BEEN RETURNED DEAD OR ALIVE, BUT ALSO MARKS THE FIRST TIME SINCE 2014 THAT THERE ARE NO ISRAELI'S BEING HELD HOSTAGE IN GAZA.

SO CERTAINLY A MILESTONE MOMENT AND ALSO THE CLOSING OF A VERY DARK CHAPTER IN ISRAEL'S HISTORY.

WE HAVE SEEN TODAY VIDEOS OF POLITICIANS AND REGULAR PEOPLE OF LIKE TAKING OFF THOSE YELLOW PINS THAT HAVE COME TO SYMBOLIZE THE FIGHT FOR THESE HOSTAGES , FOR EVERY SINGLE HOSTAGE TO ULTIMATELY BE RETURNED TO ISRAEL.

ONE SLOGAN GOING AROUND THE COUNTRY TODAY IS FIRST TO ENTER, LAST TO RETURN.

THAT IS A REFERENCE TO THE FAST THAT RON VELEY WHO WAS A á24 POLICE OFFICER ON OCTOBER 7, 2023, THAT HE RUSHED TO ONE OF THOSE-- ON THE MORNING OF OCTOBER 7 TO TRY AND DEFEND THAT COMMUNITY FROM INVADING HAMAS AND OTHER PALESTINIAN MILITANT FORCES.

WE ARE TOLD HE DIED WHILE COMBATING THOSE HAMAS MILITANTS ON THAT DAY ONLY AFTER HE RAN OUT OF AMMUNITION.

THE ISRAELI MILITARY SAID IT BEGAN THIS OPERATION TO RECOVER HIS BODY YESTERDAY IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF GAZA CITY THIS ALL HAPPENED ON THE ISRAELI SIDE OF THE YELLOW LINE AND IT CAME AFTER THE ISRAELI MILITARY RECEIVED INTELLIGENCE LAST WEEK INDICATING THAT HIS BODY WAS BURIED IN A CEMETERY IN THAT AREA.

I SHOULD NOTE THAT PALESTINIAN ISLAMIC JIHAD ONE OF THOSE GROUPS IN GAZA SAID IT PROVIDED MEDIATORS WITH COORDINATES OF WHERE HIS BODY WAS HELD THREE WEEKS AGO AND ACCUSED ISRAEL OF DELIBERATELY STALLING COORDINATION AND RECOVERY PROCESS.

REGARDLESS OF THAT, WHAT IS CLEAR IS THAT NOW PHASE II CAN INDEED MOVE FORWARD WITH FEWER ISRAELI OBJECTIONS.

WE KNOW THE OPENING OF THAT RAFAH CROSSING IN BOTH DIRECTIONS TO ALLOW PALESTINIANS TO BOTH LEAVE AND RETURN TO THE GAZA STRIP IS SET TO BE OPENED THIS WEEK.

AS A RESULT ISRAEL HAD PREVIOUSLY HELD UP THE OPENING OF THE CROSSING WHICH SHOULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE IN THE EARLY WEEKS OF THIS CEASE-FIRE DUE TO THE FACT THAT HIS BODY HAD NOT BEEN RETURN.

ANOTHER CALL ALSO FROM GAZA'S CIVIL DEFENSE FOR HEAVY MACHINERY TO BE ALLOWED TO ENTER THE GAZA STRIP SO THAT THE BODIES OF THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIANS BURIED UNDER THE RUBBLE CAN FINALLY PERHAPS ALSO HAVE A CHANCE OF BEING RECOVERED.

>> AND YET WITH THE RETURN OF RON VELEY 'S REMAINS, PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU ADDRESSED SAYING THE NEXT STAGES THE DISARMAMENT AND MILLET -- DEMILITARIZATION OF GAZA, NOT RECONSTRUCTION.

WE HAVE AN INTEREST IN ADVANCING THIS STAGE RATHER THAN DELAYING IT.

HOW IS THAT BEING INTERPRETED?

>> LISTEN, IT CERTAINLY CONTRADICTS WHAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM THE AMERICANS.

AMERICAN OFFICIALS HAVE MADE CLEAR THAT THEIR TOP PRIORITIES DURING THIS NEXT PHASE OF THE CEASE-FIRE AGREEMENT ARE ON THE ONE HAND YES INDEED THE DISARMAMENT OF HAMAS WHICH IS GOING TO BE A VERY CONTENTIOUS AND THORNY ISSUE, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND ALSO, THE RECONSTRUCTION OF THE GAZA STRIP AND I CAN TELL YOU FROM SPEAKING TO SOURCES INVOLVED IN THIS PROCESS THE ENORMOUS NEED THAT EXISTS FOR HOUSING IN GAZA WHERE TENTS AND TARPS ARE NOT ENOUGH TO EXTEND THE COLD CONDITIONS THAT HAVE BEEN THERE IN RECENT WEEKS AND A LOT MORE IS OBVIOUSLY NEEDED TO ALLOW THE PEOPLE OF GAZA TO BEGIN TO MOVE FORWARD.

AND ALSO SO THIS NEW TECHNOCRATIC PALESTINIAN COMMITTEE WHICH IS SUPPOSED TO TAKE OVER GOVERNANCE SHOWS THAT IT CAN GOVERN THE GAZA STRIP AND DELIVER FOR ITS PEOPLE.

>> REPORTING LIVE FROM JERUSALEM, THANK YOU.

AFTER YEARS OF TURMOIL AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY THE UNIVERSITY HAS NAMED A NEW PRESIDENT.

YOU WILL RECALL THE SCHOOL WAS HOME TO MAJOR PROTESTS AFTER OCTOBER 7 AND NOW ALONG WITH OTHER HIGHER LEARNING INSTITUTIONS IT WAS STRUGGLING TO MANAGE THREATS FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

LEE BOLLINGER IS ONE OF AMERICA'S MOST WELL-KNOWN ACADEMIC LEADERS INCLUDING COLUMBIA'S PRESIDENT FOR 20 YEARS.

IN HIS NEW BOOK , UNIVERSITY: A RECKONING, IT IS A CALL FOR ACADEMIC INSTITUTIONS TO STAND UP AGAINST PRESSURE FROM THE WHITE HOUSE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> PLEASURE.

>> I SHOULD SAY MISTER PRESIDENT BECAUSE YOU HAVE LED TWO OF OUR MOST PRESTIGIOUS AND COMPETITIVE UNIVERSITIES .

UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN AND COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY.

AND I ACTUALLY SHOULD MENTION THAT THESE WERE NOT PLACID TIMES WHEN YOU WERE LEADING THESE INSTITUTIONS.

THERE WERE STUDENT PROTESTS, CONGRESSIONAL SCRUTINY, POLITICAL PRESSURE, POLITICAL CURRENTS.

BUT OBVIOUSLY YOU WROTE THIS BOOK THINKING THERE IS SOMETHING SPECIAL ABOUT THIS MOMENT SO WHAT IS IT ABOUT THIS MOMENT THAT STRIKES YOU AS DIFFERENT?

>> THE INTRUSION INTO ACADEMIC AFFAIRS OF UNIVERSITIES, SO THAT IS NOT REALLY HAPPENED CERTAINLY NOT TO THIS DEGREE FOR DECADES.

YOU HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE McCARTHY PERIOD WHICH IS ABOUT ONE SENATOR LEADING THE CAMPAIGN OF INTOLERANCE .

YOU HAVE TO GO BACK TO THAT.

FOR SOMETHING COMPARABLE AND THE LEVEL OF INTRUSION, THE THREAT TO ACADEMIC FREEDOM AND THE NEED TO THINK ABOUT UNIVERSITIES AND THEIR ROLE IN THE CONSTITUTION AND THE FIRST AMENDMENT IS MUCH MORE IMPERATIVE TODAY THAN IT REALLY HAS BEEN IN MODERN HISTORY.

THAT IS REALLY THE PRECIPITATING REASON FOR THE BOOK.

>> IN YOUR BE A --IN YOUR BOOK YOU SAY WE ARE IN SHORT WITNESSING A TECTONIC SHIFT IN AMERICA TOWARD THE USE OF AUTHORITARIAN TACTICS THAT THREATEN OUR DEMOCRATIC FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

THE UNIVERSITY IS AMONG THE FIRST ALONG WITH THE PRESS, OF THE MAJOR INDEPENDENT INSTITUTIONS IN SOCIETY TO FEEL THE BRUNT OF THIS NEW AND FRIGHTENING TRANSFORMATION.

YOUR POINT HERE IS THAT YES THE UNIVERSITIES AND THE PRESS ARE ON THE LEADING EDGE BUT THIS IS REALLY ABOUT DEMOCRACY.

WHAT CONVINCES YOU OF THAT?

WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?

>> I THINK IT'S BOTH ABOUT DEMOCRACY AND FUNDAMENTAL VALUES IN THE COUNTRY.

WE'VE SEEN FROM THE VERY START OF THE ADMINISTRATION EFFORTS TO TRY TO SILENCE AND REALLY ATTACK LAW FIRMS AND MEDIA, CIVIL SERVICE , INDEPENDENT AGENCIES THAT PROVIDE THE NATION WITH OBJECTIVE INFORMATION LIKE THE BUREAU OF LABOR STATISTICS , AND THEN UNIVERSITIES.

THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY IS ALSO FACING THIS.

IF THERE'S ANY KIND OF OPPOSITION THERE IS AN EFFORT TO COME DOWN VERY HARD ON THEM AND TRY TO SILENCE THEM.

SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU REALLY CANNOT HAVE IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE COMMITTED TO A DEMOCRACY AND IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE COMMITTED TO A NATION THAT VALUES KNOWLEDGE.

AND, INDEPENDENT INFORMATION AND KNOWLEDGE AND THAT'S WHERE WE HAVE BEEN FOR THE PAST CENTURY.

IT WOULD BE A TRAGEDY TO LOSE THAT.

>> AS A PERSON WHO, PRESUMABLY THROUGH YOUR OWN WORK AS A SCHOLAR, AS A LAWYER, AS A LEADER OF THESE PROMINENT INSTITUTIONS YOU'VE MET A LOT OF THESE INDUSTRY LEADERS AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU HAVE POINTED OUT IS THAT A LOT OF THEM FOLDED OVER PRETTY FAST.

AMAZON WAS GOING TO, OR TALKED ABOUT HAVING SOME SORT OF INDICATOR ON THEIR WEBSITE OF THE COST OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION TARIFF SCHEME ON DIFFERENT PRODUCTS.

OF COURSE HE THREATENED THEM AND THEY IMMEDIATELY FOLDED.

SOME OF THE FINEST, MOST DISTINGUISHED LAWYERS IN THE COUNTRY, HE THREATENED THEM, THEY FOLDED.

JUST WONDERING WHY YOU THINK THEY CAPITULATED SO QUICKLY.

>> I THINK THIS IS COME , THE WHOLE SORT OF AFFAIR HAS TAKEN PEOPLE BY SURPRISE.

PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SHOCKED BY THE LEVEL OF ASSAULT ON BASIC VALUES AND BASIC INSTITUTIONS AND SO WE WERE NOT PREPARED FOR IT.

I THINK IT'S JUST A COMBINATION OF, IT'S VERY, VERY DIFFICULT TO FACE A SITUATION IN WHICH THE GOVERNMENT'S FULL POWER, WHICH IS IMMENSE, CAN BE BROUGHT DOWN ON YOU AND FACE WHAT EVERYBODY WILL ALWAYS SAY , AN EXISTENTIAL CHOICE.

DO YOU CAPITULATE ?

DO YOU TRY TO FIND A WAY OUT OF THIS EVEN IF THAT MEANS SACRIFICING SOME OF YOUR VALUES?

OR DO YOU STAND UP AND TRY TO FIGHT BACK?

THAT'S A REALLY HARD PROBLEM AND I AM VERY SYMPATHETIC TO THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE FELT, AND INSTITUTIONS WHO HAVE FELT THEY HAD TO FIND A WAY TO SAVE THEIR INSTITUTIONS BY NEGOTIATION AND CONCILIATION.

BUT IT IS THE CASE THAT THE ONLY WAY IN WHICH YOU CAN EFFECTIVELY COUNTER THIS IS BY COLLECTIVE ACTION.

IT'S NOT BY AN INDIVIDUAL INSTITUTION OR A SINGLE SECTOR OF SOCIETY.

EVERYBODY WHO WRITES ABOUT THE DEMOCRACY, THE END OF DEMOCRACY AND SO ON, ALL THE SCHOLARSHIP POINTS OUT THAT IT IS ONLY WHEN CIVIL SOCIETY BROADLY SORT OF BACKS AND RISES UP AND SAYS THIS CANNOT STAND, THAT YOU REALLY HAVE EFFECTIVE RESISTANCE.

>> A LOT OF PEOPLE SEE UNIVERSITIES AND LOTS OF DIFFERENT WAYS.

SOME PEOPLE SEE COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES AS PLACES YOU GO TO LEARN STUFF SO YOU CAN GET A JOB.

THEY ARE ENGINES OF THE ECONOMY.

WHY SHOULD SOMEONE PERHAPS IT DIDN'T HAVE THE CHANCE TO GO TO UNIVERSITY EMBRACE THAT IDEA?

>> I THINK PEOPLE UNDERSTAND IN THEIR HEARTS THAT HAVING MAJOR INSTITUTIONS OF ALL KINDS, FROM COMMUNITY COLLEGES ALL THE WAY THROUGH TO THE RESEARCH UNIVERSITIES, THAT IT IS REALLY VALUABLE FOR SOCIETY TO HAVE THIS KIND OF HUMAN EFFORT TO EXPAND KNOWLEDGE BECAUSE IT BENEFITS THE SOCIETY AND ALL KINDS OF WAYS.

EVERYTHING FROM ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT TO SIMPLY MAKING IT POSSIBLE TO UNDERSTAND LIFE.

AND IT APPLIES NOT JUST TO THE PEOPLE WHO COME AND OUR STUDENTS OR FACULTY WHO ARE THERE, IT BENEFITS EVERYBODY IN SOCIETY.

I THINK ALSO THAT THERE IS A CAMPAIGN THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR MANY YEARS .

PEOPLE WHO WANT TO CHARACTERIZE UNIVERSITIES IN VERY NEGATIVE STEREOTYPES , AS FILLED WITH INTOLERANCE, IDEOLOGICAL, NOT SCHOLARLY, TOO COSTLY, ET CETERA .

AND WHILE THERE ARE CRITICISMS ABOUT UNIVERSITIES, MANY OF WHICH I HAVE MADE MYSELF, THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS IF YOU LOOK AT ALL THE PARTS OF SOCIETY AND YOU SAY WHICH ONES HAVE THE MOST INTEGRITY IN PURSUING WHAT THEIR MISSION IS, I THINK UNIVERSITIES ARE AT THE VERY FOREFRONT OF THAT AND THE PROOF IS IN PART THAT EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD WANTS TO COME AND ATTEND UNIVERSITIES IN AMERICA BECAUSE THEY REALLY ARE THE STANDARD FOR THIS.

>> WELL THAT MIGHT NOT BE THE CASE ANY MORE.

THE NUMBER OF INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS COMING TO THE UNITED STATES HAS REALLY FALLEN PRECIPITOUSLY.

>> BUT NOT BECAUSE OF THE QUALITY OF UNIVERSITIES.

>> BECAUSE OF THE POLITICAL CLIMATE.

THE IRONY IS THESE CONCRETE FINANCIAL PRESSURES BEING PLACED ON UNIVERSITIES ARE HAVING AN EFFECT ON KIND OF THE, RESEARCH FLOW.

TOP SCHOLARS AND RESEARCH DOLLARS ARE FLOWING TO CANADA , TO CHINA.

SOME $400 MILLION IN GRANTS AND CONTRACTS FROZEN AT COLUMBIA.

$510 MILLION AT BROWN.

$1 BILLION AT CORNELL.

$790 MILLION AT NORTHWESTERN.

MUCH OF IT TIED TO DEMANDS ABOUT GOVERNANCE OR COMPLIANCE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE CONSEQUENCE OF THIS IS GOING TO BE DOWN THE LINE?

>> THIS IDEA OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OF SUSPENDING THAT KIND OF FUNDING FOR THAT KIND OF RESEARCH IS FOOLHARDY BUT IT'S ALSO STRIKING THE BASIC VALUES THAT WE HAVE COMMITTED OURSELVES TO.

IT MAY SOUND IDEALISTIC BUT THE FIRST AMENDMENT, THE CONSTITUTION OF THE COUNTRY HAS MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT THE VALUE OF KNOWLEDGE AND THE PRESERVATION OF DEMOCRACY, MAKING IT POSSIBLE TO BE A DEMOCRACY , THAT THESE ARE WHAT THE COUNTRY IS COMMITTED TO.

AND THE THINGS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT , MICHEL, OF FUNDAMENTAL RESEARCH IN THESE AREAS AND BEYOND, IN THE LIBERAL ARTS AS WELL, THAT IS THREATENED BY THIS KIND OF USE OF THE LOVER OF FUNDING TO ACCOMPLISH INTRUSIONS INTO PURE ACADEMIC DECISION-MAKING.

FACULTY, STUDENTS, POLICIES OF THE UNIVERSITIES.

>> THE FACT IS ON THE ONE HAND EVEN IF YOU ACCEPT WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE BELIEVE, WHICH IS AT THE CAMPUS CLIMATE IS JUST A PRETEXT FOR AUTHORITARIAN IMPULSE, THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO FEEL AND WHO CERTAINLY HAVE FELT, PARTICULARLY LET'S JUST SAY IN THE WAKE OF THE GAZA WAR, THERE ARE STUDENTS WHO ARE JUST UNDER ATTACK ON SOME OF THESE CAMPUSES AND THEY HAVE FELT SILENCED AND SOME OF THEM HAVE FELT HARASSED AND DEEPLY UNWELL, AND I JUST WONDER HOW YOU SORT OF SQUARE THOSE TWO READ , I DON'T WANT TO CALL IT REALITIES BUT PHENOMENON.

HOW DO YOU SQUARE THOSE THINGS?

>> OVER THE PAST YEAR, YEAR AND A HALF, WE FACED AN INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT SITUATION ON AMERICAN CAMPUSES BUT ALSO IN SOCIETY GENERALLY IN TRYING TO UNDERSTAND AND DEAL WITH QUESTIONS OF POLICY AND PRINCIPLE WITH THE ISRAELI PALESTINIAN HAMAS ISSUES BUT ALSO WITH RACE IN AMERICA, WITH ABORTION IN AMERICA .

THESE ARE INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT ISSUES FOR PEOPLE TO ADDRESS AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS UNFORTUNATELY THERE ARE EXCESSES.

AND YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CLEAR IF YOU ARE IN AN INSTITUTION OR IF YOU RUN AN INSTITUTION THAT ACCESSES ARE UNACCEPTABLE AND WILL BE TREATED AS SUCH.

YOU ALSO HAVE TO UNDERSTAND , YOU HAVE TO HAVE VERY CLEAR IDEAS.

THE FIRST AMENDMENT OVER THE PAST CENTURY, AGAIN HAS SAID, THE COURT HAS HELD, OVER MANY DECISIONS CONSERVATIVES AND LIBERALS ALIKE, THAT HATE SPEECH, ANTI-SEMITIC, RACIST SPEECH, SEXIST AND MISOGYNISTIC SPEECH WILL BE PROTECTED BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT JUST LIKE ANY OTHER.

THAT'S A VERY SIGNIFICANT CHOICE AND A VERY DIFFICULT ONE AND SOMETHING I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT OVER THE COURSE OF MY CAREER.

PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES ARE BOUND BY THAT BECAUSE THEY ARE BOUND BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

PRIVATE UNIVERSITIES HAVE MADE A CHOICE.

THEY WILL ALSO BE BOUND BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

WHAT THAT MEANS IS WHEN YOU'RE HAVING DEBATES ABOUT PUBLIC ISSUES ON CAMPUSES AND YOU ARE COMMITTED TO A FIRST AMENDMENT TO ROACH, YOU MAY END UP WITH BAD SPEECH BEING SPOKEN WHICH IS HORRIBLE FOR MANY PEOPLE TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH AND HORRIBLE FOR THE COMMUNITY AT LARGE, BUT YOU CANNOT SAY THAT THAT IS, ITSELF SOMETHING THE UNIVERSITIES HAVE FAILED TO CORRECT FOR WHEN IN FACT THE COMMITMENT HAS BEEN IN SOCIETY AND NOW ON CAMPUSES, TO LIVE BY FIRST AMENDMENT FOR ALL KINDS OF REASONS.

>> IN YOUR ESSAY LAST ME FOR THE ATLANTIC YOU WROTE THAT STRATEGIES OF APPEASEMENT NEVER WORK OUT.

AT SOME POINT WHEN SANITY RETURNS YOU WILL BE SEEN AS HAVING SACRIFICED YOUR PRINCIPLES WHEN UNDER PRESSURE AND THAT WILL UNDERMINE YOUR CASE FOREVER.

SO YOU DRAW A CONTRAST BETWEEN YOU AND THERE UNIVERSITIES THAT NEGOTIATED SETTLEMENTS WHICH CHOSE TO RESIST BLOCKING WHAT A JUDGE CALLED AN ARBITRARY AND CAPRICIOUS FUNDING SUSPENSION.

A STONE WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN HAS HARVARD GOTTEN IT RIGHT SO FAR AND IS THAT A PATH THAT OTHERS SHOULD FOLLOW?

>> UNIVERSITIES LIKE OTHER INSTITUTIONS WERE SURPRISED AND SHOCKED BY THE LEVEL OF INTRUSION AND DEMANDS AND THREATS THAT THEY FACED .

COMPLETELY UNDERSTANDABLE IN MY VIEW THAT UNIVERSITIES WOULD RESPOND IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO ORGANIZE COLLECTIVE ACTION.

MYSELF, I THINK THE HARVARD APPROACH WAS THE RIGHT ONE ESPECIALLY FOR HARVARD BECAUSE THE LEVEL OF INTRUSION WAS MUCH MORE THAN FOR OTHER UNIVERSITIES, I BELIEVE, SO FAR.

SO I DO THINK , AND THE POINT OF THIS BOOK IS TO TRY TO SAY THAT UNIVERSITIES NEED TO BE MUCH CLEARER ABOUT WHAT THEIR IDENTITY IS IN SOCIETY.

THEIR ROLE AND RESPONSIBILITIES.

THEY NEED TO MAKE THAT CLAIM AND THEY NEED TO DO IT IN VARIOUS WAYS BUT THROUGH THE COURTS AND THE FIRST AMENDMENT AND THE LAW IS A PRIMARY WAY.

SO I THINK THAT STANDING UP AND ARTICULATING YOUR VALUES AND MAKING YOUR DEFENSE IS THE RIGHT APPROACH.

>> I RECOGNIZES HAVE TO BE AN AWKWARD QUESTION FOR YOU AS THE FORMER LEADER OF THIS INSTITUTION BUT YOU DO REALIZE FOR MANY PEOPLE COLUMBIA IS THE POSTER CHILD FOR APPEASEMENT?

>> I'VE MADE A DELIBERATE CHOICE NOT TO CRITICIZE , DIRECTLY CRITICIZE MY INSTITUTION AND THE ONE THAT I LEAD FOR 21 YEARS.

ONE HAS TO BE AS I SAID, VERY SYMPATHETIC WITH INSTITUTIONS OF STRUGGLING WITH HOW TO DEAL WITH THE ATTACKS THEY HAVE ENDURED.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK PEOPLE SHOULD DO RIGHT NOW?

PEOPLE WHO SHARE THE PERSPECTIVE THAT YOU SHARE AND THE DEEP CONCERN THAT YOU HAVE ARTICULATED?

AND PEOPLE WHO ALSO SHARE THE LOVE OF KNOWLEDGE AND FREE THOUGHT THAT YOU HAVE ARTICULATED?

>> I THINK WE NEED TO SETTLE ON THE KEY, THE CORE IDENTITY OF WHAT UNIVERSITIES ARE.

IT'S JUST CRITICAL TO ME THAT WE CAN'T FALL FOR THIS IDEA THAT UNIVERSITIES ARE JUST BUSINESSES OR THAT THEY ARE ONLY FOR ELITES , ALL OF THESE STANDARD CRITICISMS.

IT REALLY IS IMPORTANT THAT UNIVERSITIES SAY WHO THEY ARE AND SAY THAT WITH CONVICTION.

I THINK IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT THAT UNIVERSITIES FIND WAYS TO ACT TOGETHER.

THIS KIND OF COLLECTIVE ACTION IS CRITICAL BUT ALSO HAS TO BE A CROSS SECTORS SO IT HAS TO BE WITH PRESS.

YOU WOULD HAVE TO AGREE, I THINK THAT THE PRESS HAS ALSO FAILED TO DEVELOP A COLLECTIVE KIND OF RESPONSE TO THE VARIOUS INTRUSIONS , SAME WITH LAW FIRMS, SAME WITH BUSINESSES.

ANYBODY WHO IS A SCHOLAR OF DEMOCRACY AND HOW YOU PRESERVE IT IN THE FACE OF ATTEMPTS TO UNDERMINE DEMOCRACY WILL SAY THAT IT'S ONLY WHEN SOCIETY BROADLY STANDS UP AND RESISTS , THAT YOU CAN HAVE AN EFFECTIVE RESISTANT TO A GOVERNMENT THAT IS INTENT ON ACHIEVING ITS GOAL OF UNDERMINING ANY KIND OF OPPOSITION.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT REQUIRES DAILY WORK , THE WORK OF MANY, MANY PEOPLE.

YOU NEVER KNOW EXACTLY HOW IT'S GOING TO UNFOLD BUT THAT HAS TO HAPPEN.

>> LEE BOLLINGER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> FINALLY, REMEMBERING A MAN WHO WAS A GIANT IN MORE WAYS THAN ONE.

ONE OF THE BRAINS BEHIND A MAJOR PUBLIC HEALTH TRIUMPH DIED ON SATURDAY , KNOWN FOR HIS VACCINATION STRATEGY HE HELPED WIPE OUT SMALLPOX DISEASE .

HE WAS ALSO 6'7" TALL AND ONE-TIME THOUSANDS IN NIGERIA FLOCK TO GET VACCINATED JUST TO SEE THE QUOTE UNQUOTE WORLD'S TALLEST MAN.

THE CDC UNDER PRESIDENTS CARTER AND REAGAN LATER ADVOCATING FOR CHILDHOOD VACCINATIONS WORLDWIDE HIS WORK WHICH HAS SAVED MILLIONS OF LIVES GLOBALLY EARNED HIM A WELL-DESERVED RESIDENTIAL MEDAL OF FREEDOM IN 2012 AT A TIME WHEN VACCINATION POLICIES ARE NOW FACING ROLLBACKS IN THE US.

HIS LEGACY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVER.

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