[MUSIC] >> Bonnie Erbe: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES.

THIS WEEK, WE ARE SPEAKING WITH WOMAN THOUGHT LEADER CHRISTIAN NUNES, THE PRESIDENT OF THE NATIONAL ORGANIZATION FOR WOMEN.

NOW IS THE LARGEST ORGANIZATION PROMOTING WOMEN'S RIGHTS IN THE IS THE LARGEST ORGANIZATION PROMOTING WOMEN'S RIGHTS IN THE U.S. UNES IS STEERING NOW DURING VERY CHALLENGING TIMES.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY".

CHRISTIAN NUNES, HOW ARE YOU?

>> Christian Nunes: I'M GREAT.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME AT YOUR SHOW TODAY, BONNIE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: HAPPY TO HAVE YOU.

DO YOU AGREE IT'S TOUGH TIMES FOR PEOPLE WHO WORK IN THE FIELD OF PROMOTING WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

>> Christian Nunes: ABSOLUTELY, BONNIE.

I THINK WHAT WE ARE SEEING AT THIS TIME IN THE WORLD AND LANDSCAPE FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS ADVOCACY, IT'S VERY TOUGH TIME.

>> Bonnie Erbe: IS IT WORSE THAN A YEAR AND HALF AGO WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE OR HAS IMPROVED WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT BECAUSE WE REALLY TALKING ABOUT THE SUPREME COURT?

>> Christian Nunes: WELL, I THINK WE ARE TALKING ABOUT NICK ACCUMULATION OF THINGS: I THINK ONE OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, EVEN BEFORE THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, BUT DEFINITELY DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WE SAW AN INCREASE IN ATTACKS OF REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS AND JUSTICE, WOMEN'S RIGHTS, THE AUTONOMY OF WOMEN'S RIGHTS, BODILY ATOMIC FOR WOMEN'S REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS.

WE SAW AN ATTACK ON JUST, YOU KNOW, INJUSTICES FOR ALL OF THE ISSUES REGARDING THINGS THAT DIRECTLY IMPACT WOMEN.

AND AS IT HAS PROGRESSED IN DIFFERENT STATES, WE CONTINUE TO SEE IF CONTINUING ON EVEN INTO THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WE ALSO SAW A PACKING OF THE COURTS THAT HAS HAD A DIRECT IMPACT ON WOMEN.

AND SO, NOW EVEN THOUGH BITING IN THE ADMINISTRATION, AND THEY ARE TRYING TO DO A LOT OF WORK TO FIX THOSE THINGS.

IT IS STILL CONTINUING ON.

>> Bonnie Erbe: THE SUPREME COURT IS EXPECTED TO ROLL IN TWO CASES, 12 CASES THAT HEARD ARGUMENTS ON INVOLVING INFLATION RATES IN TEXAS AND MISSISSIPPI.

HOW DO YOU -- THAT RULING PROBABLY WON'T COME OUT UNTIL THE VERY END OF THE TERM.

THAT'S WHAT THEY USUALLY DO WITH THEIR MOST DIFFICULT DECISIONS, IT IS LEAVE THEM TO THE END.

HOW DO YOU SEE IT COMING OUT?

ANY SURPRISES FOR YOU?

ANY GOOD SUPPRESSES OR DO EXPECT THE WORST?

>> Christian Nunes: I THINK WHAT WE ARE SEEING, WHAT WE ARE FACING IS A HUGE CONCERN AND THREAT FOR THE OVERTURN OF ROE.

I SAW NOTHING THAT WHAT WE SAW HAPPENING UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WAS THE PACKING OF THE SUPREME COURT WITH THE VERY EXTREME JUSTICES PLACED IN THE CORRECT.

WHAT WE SAW WHEN WE STARTED HEARING ORAL ARGUMENTS, WE SAW A LOT OF CONVERSATION THAT REALLY WAS CONCERNING ABOUT INDIVIDUALS IN THE SUPREME COURT INJUSTICES REALLY SAYING THAT THEY ARE SOMEWHAT WERE OKAY WITH FAVORING AND SUPPORTING THESE LAWS AND BANS PUT ON BY THE STATES THAT REALLY WERE UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND FAVOR TO THE OVERTURNING OF ROE.

SO WE HAVE SEEN IT WITH JUSTICES SUPPORTING IN THOSE THINGS, IT REALLY LOOKS LIKE THERE IS A FEAR THAT ROE MAY BE POSSIBLY OVERTURNED.

AND WITH THE RETIRING OF JUSTICE BREYER, BIDEN HAS A NOMINEE PICK AND WE ARE HOPING THAT, YOU KNOW, WE ARE VERY PROMISING OF THAT PIC.

BUT WE ALSO KNOW WE HAVE A CHALLENGE BECAUSE WE DO KNOW THOSE CONSERVATIVES AND THOSE WHO DON'T WANT THAT TO PICKED TO BE PROGRESSIVE PACK ARE GOING TO DO EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER TO STOP THAT FROM HAPPENING.

AND WE HAVE TO FIGHTING VERY HARD TO MAKE SURE WE FIGURE OUT A WAY TO BALANCE POWER AND DEVELOPMENT RATES IN THOSE ISSUES, THE CONSTITUENTS ARE HEARD SO THAT WE CAN, YOU KNOW, RESORT ROE BECAUSE IT IS A NEEDED AND NECESSARY PART OF HEALTHCARE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: YOU ALSO RUN NOW'S FOUNDATION AND IT IS PAC.

DO YOU HAVE THE FINANCIAL RESOURCES TO ATTACK THIS PROBLEM OF WOMEN LOSING ABORTION RIGHTS 50 YEARS AFTER THE FIRST WON THEM?

AS YOU MENTIONED, SO MANY STATES HAVE LAWS AND THEN YOU HAVE TO BE FIGHTING WITH CANDIDATES RUNNING FOR THE SENATE IN DIFFERENT STATES.

SO IT'S A NATIONAL AND LOCAL FIGHT AT THE SAME TIME.

>> Christian Nunes: ABSOLUTELY.

YOU KNOW, AND I'M SO GLAD YOU BROUGHT THAT UP, BONNIE, BECAUSE WE HAVE TO ATTACK THIS AT ALL LEVELS.

WE CAN JUST ATTACK THIS AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, BECAUSE A LOT OF WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS HAPPENING AT THE LOCAL LEVEL AND STATE LEVEL WHERE THEY ARE STARTING WITH THESE LAWS, RIGHT?

AND SO, OF COURSE, WE ALWAYS COULD USE MORE FUNDING TO HELP FIGHT THESE ISSUES BECAUSE WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO ELECT, YOU KNOW, FEMINIST CANDIDATES AND PROGRESSIVE CANDIDATES IN THE LOCAL LEVEL IN THE STATE LEVEL SO THAT WE CAN START ON THE GRASSROOTS LEVEL TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE PEOPLE IN PLACE WHO ARE GOING TO SUPPORT OUR ISSUES IN THE ISSUES THAT ARE GOING TO BE THERE FOR WOMEN'S EQUALITY IN ADVANCING WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

AND THEN WE ALSO HAVE TO CONTINUE TO GO ALL THE WAY UP TO THE FEDERAL LEVEL.

AND WE ALSO HAVE TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE ACTIVE ACTIVISTS ON THE GROUND WILL GOING TO BE OUT THERE ADVOCATING AND DOING THE WORK THAT WE NEED, BECAUSE NOW IT'S A GRASSROOTS ORGANIZATION.

O THAT'S WE ARE RELYING ON AS OUR GRASSROOTS ACTIVISTS, TO BE OUT THERE ADVOCATING, CALLING, GETTING OUT THERE, CAMPAIGNING, EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO MAKE SURE WE ARE DOING OUR WORK FULLY TO GET OUR BOOKS OUT THERE AND GET PEOPLE IN PLACE WHO ARE GOING TO REPRESENT AS FULLY.

SO IT IS A FULL, HOLISTIC EFFORT THAT HAS TO BE IN PLACE, AND WE DO NEED CONTINUED FUNDING TO SUPPORT THAT WORK AND ALL LEVELS.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ARE YOU JUST APPLYING TO FOUNDATIONS ARE CORPORATIONS, OR IS IT -- YOU LIVE OFF OF MENTORSHIP DUES?

WHERE DOES NOW'S INCOME COME FROM?

>> Christian Nunes: WE ARE A MEMBERSHIP-BASED ORGANIZATION.

SO OUR FUNDING COMES FROM MEMBERSHIP IN MEMBERS AND DONORS.

AS WE CONTINUE, WE ARE WORKING INTO EXPANDING THAT TO LOOK TWO DIFFERENT FUNDS THAT ALSO SUPPORT GRASSROOTS ORGANIZATIONS.

BUT A MAJORITY OF OUR FUNDING IS MEMBERSHIP AND DONOR BASED.

>> Bonnie Erbe: AND NOW, WHEN IT WAS FOUNDED IN THE '60s, CAME OUT WITH A BANG.

FOR A LONG TIME IT WAS VERY PROMINENT ORGANIZATION.

AND TO BE HONEST, THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF LEADERS OLDER THAN YOU, YOU KNOW, PRIOR GENERATIONS, MY GENERATION, WHO SEEM NOT TO HAVE -- THEY MAY HAVE BEEN GREAT ACTIVISTS FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS, BUT THEY DIDN'T SEEM TO KNOW HOW TO RUN AN ORGANIZATION AND KEEP IT PREEMINENT, AS IT WAS.

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO TO REVERSE THAT?

>> Christian Nunes: WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S GREAT POINT TO BRING UP, BECAUSE WHAT WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT NOW WE ARE ACTIVISTS, AND ACADEMIC ADVOCACY ORGANIZATION BUT WE ARE STILL A BUSINESS, RIGHT?

SO IT'S ABOUT BALANCING BOTH.

AND I DO HAVE BOTH BACKGROUNDS, RIGHT.

I HAVE AN MBA AND MASTERS IN CLINICAL SOCIAL WORK.

SO I BRING AN INTERESTING PERSPECTIVE IN WHERE I UNDERSTAND FIRSTHAND WHAT THAT EXPERIENCE IS LIKE FOR THOSE WHO SHARE THE NARRATIVE AND WORKING WITH THEM IN A MACRO LEVEL SOCIAL WORK AND A MICRO LEVEL SOCIAL WORK, BUT I ALSO UNDERSTAND THE BUSINESS SIDE OF THE DOCUMENT, WHAT IT IS AND HOW THAT MBA AND WHAT BUSINESS LOOKS LIKE WHEN YOU'RE HAVING TO BALANCE THIS TWO-POINT SO WE HAVE BEEN REALLY WORKING HARD IN A ROUTINE TO LOOK AT ALL THOSE THINGS THEY CAN STRATEGIC PLANNING.

WHAT DO WE NEED TO DO TO MOVE FORWARD IN OUR ORGANIZATION, WORKING WITH OUR, YOU KNOW, OUR PULLING TOGETHER TEAM TO PLANNERS, PULLING TOGETHER, PROJECT MANAGERS, PULLING TOGETHER, HAVING OUR BOARD LOOK AT ISSUES OF PLANNING, LOOKING AT A LONG TERM VISION OF WHAT WE NEED TO BE SUSTAINABLE AND GROWING TO OUR VISION.

BUT WHAT WE WANT TO BE AND HOW WE WANT TO RETURN TO THE TRUECORE OF WHAT NOW IS REALLY ABOUT.

WE HAVE BEEN DOING ALL OF THESE THINGS AND WE'VE BEEN BUILDING YOUR ORGANIZATION TO MOVE FORWARD FOR THE FUTURE, BECAUSE NOW IS A MULTI-ISSUE, MULTIFACETED, MULTI-STRATEGIC ORGANIZATION WE HAVE TO -- WE'VE BEEN DOING THE SAME WORK, RIGHT?

EDUCATING, MOBILIZING, AND CONVENING.

BUT COVID, SO THAT'S SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

WE HAVE TO REIMAGINE HOW WE DO THESE THINGS AND WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE STAY CURRENT AND REJECT MEMBERS IN A NEW ERA, NEW TIME, AND REJECT ALL DIFFERENT MEMBERS FROM ALL DIFFERENT GENERATIONS AS WELL THAT IMPACTS THEM IN THEIR TYPE OF ADVOCACY AND IT REACHES THEIR NEEDS AND THE DAY BEFORE WE ARE DOING.

SO WE HAVE BEEN WORKING HARD -- HE WILL LET ME INTERRUPT YOU FOR A SECOND.

WE'VE BEEN IN THE POSITION FULLY SINCE AUGUST OF '21 BUT ELECTED -- OH, SINCE AUGUST OF '20, THANK YOU.

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HOW WE HAVE TO EXPLOIT THIS, WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THAT.

BUT WILL CONCRETE HAVE YOU GOTTEN DONE IN A YEAR AND A HALF?

>> Christian Nunes: SURE.

WE HAVE DONE RESEARCH -- WE HAVE DONE RESEARCH STUDY WHERE WE HAD ACTUALLY'S RESEARCH, DONE A FULL RESEARCH STUDY WITH AN ORGANIZATION TO LOOK AT OUR MEMBERSHIP AND FIND OUT FIRSTHAND WHATEVER MEMBERSHIP FEELS ABOUT THE ORGANIZATION, WHAT THEIR NEEDS ARE, WHETHER IT'S WITH OUR CORE ISSUES.

WE HAVE REVAMPED OUR MEMBERSHIP RULES AND SYSTEM SO THAT WE CAN STREAMLINE THEM AND MOVE IT TO 22 ONE AND GET EVERYTHING AND WHEN DATABASE SO WE CAN BE MORE APPOSITIONAL WITH HOW WE DO OUR WORK AND MORE STREAMLINED.

WE HAVE IMPLEMENTED TESTING, WE'VE IMPLEMENTED MORE STREAMLINED APPROACHES MORE DIGITAL.E'VE DONE A LOT OF THINGS TO MOVE US IN A MORE STREAMLINED PROCESS.

WE DEVELOP NEW POLICY AND PROCEDURE MANUALS.

WE'VE DONE A LOT OF THINGS TO GET US TO THE ERA TO BE MORE QUICKLY HAVE TO RESPOND, WE DEVELOPED NEW PROGRAMS LIKE NOW -- RAN NOW, WHICH IS OUR NEW PROGRAM TO TRAIN CANDIDATES AND CANADA OPERATIVES, YOU CAN RUN SO WE CAN ACTUALLY PUT NEW CANDIDATES IN PLACE.

YOU KNOW THAT WE SAY WE WANT NEW CANDIDATES AND PROGRESSIVE.

WE HAVE DEVELOPED A PROGRAM THAT WILL WORK WITH THE PARTNERS, WITH OTHER ORGANIZATIONS WHO'VE ALREADY BEEN DOING THIS, LIKE EMILY'S LIST AND EMERGE AND SPEAKEASY TO COME IN AND TRAIN OUR MEMBERS AND OTHERS WHO WANT TO RUN FOR OFFICE, AND ALSO WORKING ON ORGANIZING AND BUILDING OUT OUR ORGANIZERS TO BE MORE TRAINED IN THE MODEL AND PERSPECTIVE THAT WE BELIEVE HOW WE WANT OUR ORGANIZERS TO BE.

AND WE'VE DONE A LEVEL OF NOW TRAINING WE WERE WORKING TO TRAIN OUR MEMBERS TO UNDERSTAND KEY COMPONENTS TO BE EFFECTIVE IN THEIR CHAPTERS, FROM FUNDRAISING TO WRITING SPEECH CAMPAIGN MESSAGING, TO UNDERSTANDING HOW TO WRITE PRESS RELEASES AND OP-ED STEW, I MEAN, JUST SOME MAJOR POINTS THEY NEED TO KNOW TO BE EFFECTIVE IN THE MESSAGING THINGS.

SO WE ARE DOING THINGS TO HELP OUR CHAPTERS BUILD THEMSELVES OUT AND BE EFFECTIVE AS WELL AS BUILDING THINGS OUT TO TRAIN ORGANIZERS AND CANDIDATES TO PUT PEOPLE IN PLACE THAT WE WANT, AS WELL AS JUST BASIC OPERATION AL THINGS FOR US TO FUNCTION FULLY AS AND NATIONAL OFFICE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT YOUR MEMBERSHIP WHEN IS YOUR MEMBERSHIP WHAT YOU WANT IT TO BE?

DO YOU HAVE YOUNG WOMEN?

DO YOU HAVE WOMEN OF COLOR?

IS IT DIVERSE OR IS IT TOO WHITE, OR WHAT IS IT?

>> Christian Nunes: OUR MEMBERSHIP -- WE HAVE MEMBERS REPRESENTING ALL TYPES OF MEMBERS.

BUT WE ARE CONTINUING TO WORK TO HAVE A MEMBERSHIP THAT'S REFLECTIVE OF INTERSECTIONAL MEMBERSHIP.

SO WE ARE CONTINUING TO WORK TO GROW THAT AND HAVE A PLACE WHERE EVERYONE FEELS LIKE THEY ARE PART OF NOW AND EVERYONE FEELS THAT THEIR VOICE AND RECOGNIZE.

THAT'S OUR GOAL TO HAVE A MULTIGENERATIONAL, INTERSECTIONAL MEMBERSHIP AND A MULTIRACIAL MEMBERSHIP.

WE FEEL LIKE THE WORK THAT WE HAVE TO CONTINUE DOING AND WE HAVE TO CONTINUE DOING THE PARKING SPACE, ALSO WORKING IN RACIAL JUSTICE AND EQUITY WITHIN OUR ORGANIZATION.ND SO, I WOULD SAY THAT YOU CAN NEVER STOP DOING THAT WORK.

>> Bonnie Erbe: TELL ME WHAT YOUR KEY ISSUES ARE, BECAUSE WE'VE TALKED OF COURSE ABOUT ABORTION AND, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE IT'S ON THE PRECIPICE AND REALLY HANGING IN THERE BY A TOOTH.

BUT WHAT ARE THE OTHER ISSUES THAT YOU ARE PURSUING?

>> Christian Nunes: WE HAVE BEEN PURSUING -- WELL, WE HAVE SIX COURT ISSUES OVERALL THAT WE WORK ON: SO THOSE ISSUES ARE CONSTITUTIONAL EQUALITY, REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS, VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN, ECONOMIC JUSTICE, RACIAL JUSTICE, AND LGBTQIA ISSUES.

THOSE ARE THE SIX COURT ISSUES.

WOULD HAVE BEEN PRIORITIES FOR US ARE THINGS WE HAVE BEEN SEEING MOST AFFECTING YOUR MEMBERSHIP AND WOMEN RIGHT NOW IN THE FRONT LINES BECAUSE OF COVID AND JUST WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE WORLD IN THE LANDSCAPE.

SO WE ARE SEEING ISSUES WITH VOTING RIGHTS AND REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS AND ECONOMIC JUSTICE.

SO WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN THE LAST YEAR, THOSE HAVE BEEN THE MAJOR ISSUES THAT REALLY HAVE BEEN IMPACTING WOMEN AND WE'VE BEEN DOING A LOT OF WORK AROUND THOSE ISSUES.

>> Bonnie Erbe: I'VE SEEN VERY INTERESTING NEW GROUPS CROP UP.

THERE WAS WHEN THAT RAN A FULL PAGE AD IN THE NEW YORK TIMES RECENTLY TALKING ABOUT TEACHING WOMEN HOW TO CONTINUE TO BE ABLE TO HAVE ABORTIONS.

THESE ARE MEDICAL OR PRESCRIPTION DRUG ABORTIONS, EVEN IF AND WHEN, AS MANY PEOPLE SUSPECT, THE SUPREME COURT OVERTURNS WERE REALLY DEMOLISHES IT IN TERMS OF ITS ACTIVE EFFICACY REVIEW WAY LATER THIS YEAR.

SO WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON THAT FRONT?

BECAUSE THAT IS IT IS BECOMING A LARGER AND LARGER SOURCE FOR WOMEN WHO NEED ABORTIONS.

>> Christian Nunes: PERSONALLY, THE NATIONAL ORGANIZATION.

WE ARE NOT DOING ANYTHING TO TEACH WOMEN THOSE TECHNIQUES ARE TACTICS.

WE ARE MORE LEGISLATIVE ADVOCACY BASED ORGANIZATION.

SO OUR PERSPECTIVE COMES FROM HOW DO WE HELP PUSH LEGISLATION AND PUSH ADVOCACY TO MAKE SURE THAT WOMEN HAVE THOSE RIGHTS ON THAT PERSPECTIVE.

AND SO, WE ARE COMING FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE IS A NATIONAL ORGANIZATION.

NOW, IF CHAPTERS 1 TO PROVIDE RESOURCES OR REFER TO ORGANIZATIONS THAT DO THAT, THEY ARE STILL WITHIN THEIR WILL TO REFER TO THOSE THINGS.

BUT FROM A NATIONAL PERSPECTIVE, WE ARE PUSHING LEGISLATION AND MAKING SURE PEOPLE CALL THEIR SENATORS, CALL THE CONGRESS MEMBERS, AND PUT INTO ACTION ALERTS, THINGS OF THAT, LET THEM KNOW ABOUT BILLS THAT ARE OUT.

WE ARE DOING IT FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: AND WHAT ARE YOU DOING LEGISLATIVELY?

THERE IS A BELIEF AMONG MANY WOMEN IN THE WOMEN'S COMMUNITY, PROGRESSIVE WOMEN, THAT ONCE THE SUPREME COURT GOES AFTER ROE AND HIS SON SAID OR DISABLES IT, THE NEXT THING WILL BE THE ABILITY TO BUY OVER-THE-COUNTER OR PRESCRIPTION ABORTIFACIENTS AND HAVE THEM SENT TO THE MALE.

>> Christian Nunes: THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS THAT ARE GOING ON, AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT TRIGGER LAWS, WE HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT HOW WILL PEOPLE BE ABLE TO OBTAIN A BOARD, YOU KNOW, LIKE MEDICAL -- PILLS TO GET ABORTIONS.

WE HAVE A LOT OF CONCERNS ABOUT WHAT WILL BE COVERED WITH MEDICARE OR YOUR INSURANCE.

SO WHAT WE ARE TRAINED TO DO IS MAKE SURE TO PROVIDE WOMEN'S HEALTH PROTECTION ACT, WE PUSH IN HELPING HOPEFULLY IN THE SENATE WILL PASS THAT, PUTTING PRESSURE ON OUR SENATORS TO PASS THAT, WE ARE PUTTING PRESSURE ON, YOU KNOW, ON OUR DIFFERENT STATES TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE ORGANIZING IN THOSE SEATS TO MAKE SURE THEY STRIKE DOWN ANY BANS THAT ARE HAPPENING THERE.

>> Christian Nunes: >> Bonnie Erbe: ARE YOU HAVING SUCCESS?

>> Christian Nunes: WE HAVE DIFFERENT STATES WHO HAVE BEEN VERY INEFFECTIVE IN ADVOCATING AND WE ARE TRYING TO SUPPORT AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

RIGHT NOW, ONE OF THE BIG THINGS I THINK WE HAVE TO CONTINUE TO PUT PRESSURE ON IS THE FILIBUSTER.

YOU KNOW, I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE HARDLY TALK ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO PUSHING THROUGH LEGISLATION THAT COULD BE HELPFUL LIKE THE WOMEN'S HEALTH PROTECTION ACT IS THE FILIBUSTER, WHICH IS -- IT'S BEEN A BIG BARRIER TO A LOT OF OUR ABILITY TO PASS THROUGH THIS REALLY EFFECTIVE LAWS AND ASK THAT WE NEED, YOU KNOW, LEGISLATION THAT WE NEED, BECAUSE THE FILIBUSTER IS A VERY IMPRESSIVE SYSTEM THAT'S BEEN PUT IN PLACE FOR A VERY LONG TIME THAT STALLS AND POOLS OF OUR ABILITY TO GET MAJOR LEGISLATION PASSED AND ENACTED IN RIGHT NOW -- > Bonnie Erbe: IT GIVES THE ABILITY TO ONE SENATOR OUT OF 100 TO JUST BLOCK SOMETHING BY STANDING UP ON THE FLOOR AND TALKING UNTIL PEOPLE GET SICK OF LISTENING IN THE BILL IS KILLED.

>> Christian Nunes: RIGHT.

AND MAJORITY OF TIME, THOSE BILLS ARE BILLS THAT ARE DIRECTLY IMPACTED WOMEN, BIPOD COMMUNITY, LGBT COMMUNITY, PEOPLE IN POVERTY AND DISABLED PERSONS.

SO I THINK WHEN WERE TALKING ABOUT ABORTION RIGHTS, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS, ENCOURAGING CONGRESS TO PASS WOMEN'S HEALTH PROTECTION ACT, YOU KNOW, IT IS BECAUSE THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS POSSIBLY CAN PREVENT THE UNDOING OF OUR REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS.ND ALSO PUTTING HEALTH TO PASSING INCLUDING CAMINO, GETTING RID OF THE HYDE AMENDMENT, DIFFERENT THINGS THAT ARE THINGS THAT WE NEED TO DO, AS WELL AS CONTINUALLY GETTING OUR, YOU KNOW, MAKING SURE THAT WE ARE JUST STANDING AND WORKING HARD TO GET RID OF THE FILIBUSTER WHO CONTINUOUSLY PROVIDES, LIKE, SO MANY IMPORTANT LEGISLATIONS FROM GETTING CAST THAT WE NEED FOR OUR PEOPLE AND OUR CONSTITUENTS IN DIFFERENT PLACES.

I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING WE HAVE TO REALLY THINK ABOUT.

SO, ON A NATIONAL FRONT, THAT IS SOME OF THE WORK THAT WE ARE DOING.

AND IT SEEMS LIKE, HOW DOES IT DIRECTLY IMPACT REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS, BUT IT IS BECAUSE WE HAVE TO LOOK AT HOW THESE THINGS DIRECTLY IMPACT WOMEN AND THEY HAVE A MAJOR IMPACT ON WOMEN ON SO MANY WAYS.

THEY HAVE AN IMPACT ON FAMILY MEDICAL LEAVE ACT, YOU KNOW, THAT HAS A DIRECT IMPACT ON WOMEN.

SO MANY THINGS DIRECTLY IMPACT THEM AND INABILITY TO HAVE MEDICAL, EVEN IN CARE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: USE THAT THE TERM AND, PLEASE EXPLAIN IT, TRIGGER STATES.

>> Christian Nunes: SURE.

TRIGGER LAW.

SO CURRENTLY THERE ARE 21 STATES THAT HAVE TRIGGER LAWS IN THIS TRIGGER LAWS ARE LAWS REGARDING ABORTION BANS, WHICH MEANS THAT IF ROE V WADE IS OVERTURNED, THOSE 21 STATES WILL IMMEDIATELY HAVE ABORTION BANS THAT CAN GO IN EFFECT.

THERE LAWS THAT IMMEDIATELY WILL TAKE PLACE THAT WILL CAUSE ABORTION BANS BASED OFF OF ROE VERSUS WADE BEING OVERTURNED.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WHAT IF THE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE SOMETHING LIKE SAY, OKAY, ABORTION IS UP TO 15 WEEKS, WHICH OF COURSE MANY WOMEN DON'T EVEN KNOW THEY ARE PREGNANT BY THEN.

AND IN FACT, WHEN YOU GET AN ABORTION, THEY WAIT YOU -- MAKE YOU WAIT UNTIL YOU ARE AT LEAST SIX OR EIGHT WEEKS PREGNANT BEFORE THEY WILL DO THE PROCEDURE BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT SURE THEY -- WHEN THEY GO INTO THE WOMB, THAT THEY GET EVERYTHING OUT OF THERE, INCLUDING LEFTOVER TISSUE THAT COULD GET INFECTED AND KILLED A WOMAN.

>> Christian Nunes: YES.

I MEAN, IT'S REALLY CONCERNING BECAUSE, LIKE YOU ARE SAYING, MANY WOMEN DON'T EVEN KNOW THAT SOON, RIGHT?

SO THEY ARE HAVING THESE LAWS AND RULES PLACED ON THEM AS WELL AS SOME STATES WITH BOUNTIES FOR PEOPLE CAN REPORT THEM AND TURN THE MEN AND COLLECT MONEY OFF OF, YOU KNOW, THEIR PLACE IN THE LIFE WHERE THEY ARE UNCERTAIN IF THEY DECIDE TO HAVE AN ABORTION.

SO THERE'S ANOTHER CONCERN.

>> Bonnie Erbe: BUT LET ME -- LET ME BACK UP FOR A SECOND BECAUSE I WANT TO ASK A SPECIFIC QUESTION ABOUT THE TRIGGER LAWS.

IF THE SUPREME COURT KEEPS A BAN AFTER 15 WEEKS, BUT KEEPS ROE IN PLACE, THOSE STATES WILL HAVE TO DO WHAT?

BECAUSE THEY DID NOT THROW OUT ROE VERSUS WADE, AND LOTS OF PEOPLE THINK THEY WANT TO KEEP THIS AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE TO THROWING IT OUT WITHOUT THROWING IT OUT BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO START THE -- THEY DON'T WANT TO TRIGGER THE MASSIVE REACTION THAT THEY FEAR FROM THE MAJORITY OF WOMEN IN THE COUNTRY WHO SUPPORT ABORTION'S RIGHTS.

THEY DON'T WANT TO SEE THEM OUT IN THE STREETS PROTESTING AND, YOU KNOW, HAVE IT BECOME A REALLY GOOD ISSUE FOR THE DEMOCRATS TO CAMPAIGN ON.

>> Christian Nunes: SO SOME STATES JUST HAVE RESTRICTIONS.

SO NOT EVERY SINGLE STATE WILL HAVE A BAN, BUT SOME STATES HAVE A RESTRICTION THAT ARE SO EXTREME THAT IT WILL MAKE IT VERY DIFFICULT FOR A WOMAN TO EVEN BE IN A POSITION TO HAVE IT.

ANYTHING VISITED THINGS WE HAVE TO CONSIDER, IS THAT IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT TOTAL BANS.

SOME PLACES HAVE SUCH EXTREME RESTRICTIONS THAT IT WILL MAKE IT SO DIFFICULT FOR THOSE WHO ARE ALREADY HAVE -- ALREADY AFFECTED BY LAWS.

SO BASICALLY THOSE ARE ONLY PRIVILEGED AND HAVE MONEY WILL BE ABLE TO BE ABLE TO THAT WOULD BE THE ONES WHO CAN STILL GET ABORTIONS.

SO IT'S STILL USED AS A WEAPON OF OPPRESSION AND CONTROL.

BECAUSE IT'S ONLY THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE MONEY AND PRIVILEGE WILL BE ABLE TO GET AROUND THOSE RESTRICTIONS, THEN IT IS STILL IS A PROBLEM.

IS STILL DIRECTLY A WEAPON OF OPPRESSION AND CONTROL.

>> Bonnie Erbe: SO HOW -- AND THEY ARE 21 -- BUT, BUT IF THE SUPREME COURT -- THIS WAS MY QUESTION BEFORE: IF IT KEEPS ROE IN PLACE, THOSE WHO TRIGGER LAWS DON'T TAKE EFFECT BECAUSE IT HASN'T BANNED ALL ABORTIONS, CORRECT?

>> Christian Nunes: CORRECT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: OKAY.

SO WHAT DO YOU DO THEN?

YOU START GOING AFTER WHATEVER RESTRICTIVE LAWS THERE ARE STATE-BY-STATE?

>> Christian Nunes: I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT, RIGHT?

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAN THAT WE CONTINUE TO ADVOCATE AND START GOING TO THE STATES.

THEY STILL HAVE THOSE LAWS AND CONTINUE TO WORK TOWARD MAKING SURE THAT WE GO TO EACH STATE AND FIGHT THOSE RESTRICTIVE LAWS.

IT IS STILL A PROBLEM.

AND WOMEN HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAVE BODILY AUTONOMY.

YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO BODILY AUTONOMY.

SO EVEN IF THIS TRIGGER LAWS ARE NOT IN PLACE, RED IS KEPT IN PLACE, WE STILL HAVE WORK TO DO.

>> Bonnie Erbe: AND WHAT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT WORK, MOST PRESSING WORK YOU NEED TO BE GETTING DONE, YOU BELIEVE, ON THE LGBTQQI FRONT?

>> Christian Nunes: I THINK IT IS A QUALITY ACT.

I THINK IT IS JUST THE FACT THEY SHOULD BE INCLUDED IN THEY SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE PROTECTED.

IN THE DISK DISCRIMINATION LAWS IN CIVIL RIGHTS ACT, AND SO THE EQUALITY ACT IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE LGBTQI FRONT.

FOR ME, I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.

AND I THINK WE HAVE TO CONTINUE TO WORK FOR MAKING SURE AND THAT THEY ARE PROTECTED IN ALL WAYS OF ANY FORMS OF DISCRIMINATION IN THE WORKPLACE IN OUR CONSTITUTION AND ALL OVER THE PLACE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: AND WHAT DO YOU IN TERMS OF LGBTQ+ RIGHTS, WHAT ABOUT TRANS WOMEN IN SPORTS?

THAT'S A PRETTY CONTENTIOUS ISSUE, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, BECAUSE THERE ARE PLENTY OF WOMEN WHO ARE VERY PRO LGBTQ RIGHTS, BUT THEY DON'T WANT TO BE ON THE OPPOSITE SOCCER TEAM PLAYING AGAINST WOMEN WHO ARE SIX-FOOT TWO OR -- AND I KNOW THE DATA SHOW THAT ONCE THEY GO ON HORMONE THERAPY, THAT A LOT OF THE MUSCLE MASS THAT THEY MAY HAVE HAD FOR, YOU KNOW, IF THEY ARE STILL GROWING, THAT WOULD MEAN IF THEY WERE STARTED ON HORMONE THERAPY AT A VERY YOUNG AGE.

THAT IF THEY FEEL THAT MEN'S BODIES ARE PHYSICALLY STRONGER, TALLER, MORE ADEPT AND ALL KINDS OF ATHLETICS IN SPORTS WHICH IS WHY THEY ARE OF COURSE WOMEN'S TEAMS AND MEN'S TEAMS AT THE OLYMPIC, OLYMPICS.

HOW DO YOU SEE THAT ISSUE RESULTING?

>> Christian Nunes: WELL, ACCORDING TO TITLE IX CLASSIFICATIONS, IT IS HOW WE LOOK AT TITLE IX DEFINES IT AND THAT IS WHAT WE SUPPORT THE TITLE IX CLASSIFICATIONS AND HOW TO DEFINE IT.

IN A PERSON IS A WAY TO IDENTIFY THEIR GENDER HOW THEY CHOOSE TO IDENTIFY IT AND THAT'S JUST HOW WE SUPPORT -- IT'S JUST THAT SIMPLE TO US!

YOU KNOW, LIKE, SO WHATEVER WE SUPPORT TITLE IX, WHATEVER TITLE NINE SAYS, THAT'S JUST WHERE WE STAND WITH THAT IN DETERMINING A PERSON HAS A RIGHT TO DETERMINE EITHER GENDER THE WAY THEY CHOOSE TO IDENTIFY IT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ALL RIGHT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME ON ALL THESE ISSUES.

BEST OF LUCK TO YOU AS YOU REORGANIZE AND TAKE NOW, WHICH IS THE PREEMINENT WOMEN'S RIGHTS ORGANIZATION IN THE COUNTRY INTO ITS NEXT MOVEMENT, ITS NEXT FORM.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

LET'S KEEP THE CONVERSATION GOING ON TWITTER, FACEBOOK, AND INSTAGRAM.LEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TO THE CONTRARY.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK "TO THE CONTRARY", SEE YOU NEXT TIME.

[MUSIC] éFOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN ONLINE EPISODE OF "TO THE CONTRARY," PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.