- While some students enter the workforce after graduation, others take their knowledge and credits and may head to a university.

Recently, Neil McKinnon became Central Michigan University's 16th president.

He joined WCMU Radio News Director Rick Brewer to discuss his background and to explain why going to college is still worth the cost.

- On November 1st of this year, Neil McKinnon became central Michigan University's 16th president.

He comes to Mount Pleasant from Augusta University in Georgia, where he was the provost, and he joins me now in studio.

Welcome to WCMU Public Media President McKinnon.

- Thank you.

It's a pleasure to be here.

I've heard about this place for a long, long time.

Well, a long, long time being the five weeks I've been here, so it's great to finally be here.

- Absolutely.

The CMU Board of trustees chose you by unanimous consent, but what made it a unanimous decision for you?

- Yeah, you know, I think it's probably a combination of factors.

One of of which is CMU is very similar to the university that I came from, Augusta University in that they're part of an elite club.

There's about 20 public research universities in this country that have what's called R2 status and have a medical school.

So I think that that part is similar.

The other part, this is a part of the country, well, I've never lived in Michigan, I'm very familiar with our wife and I have three daughters, they've done Scottish Highland dancing most of their lives and of course there's a little college just south of here, Alma College, that's quite famous for that.

And so during the interview process, I went back to our old pictures and counted that we had spent seven different times we had stayed at a certain hotel here near campus.

And so for my wife and I, this was a part of the country we're familiar with, but also familiar with CMU in Mount Pleasant.

And so you put that together, similar kind of university, a place we're familiar with, it was really, from my perspective anyway, the perfect marriage.

- Now, president McKinnon, I haven't fact checked this yet, but I'm pretty sure you might be the only president in the state of Michigan this year to be escorted into their reception by a bagpipe?

- Yeah.

- So let's go ahead and throw a quick photo of you and your wife, Leanne, going into Powers Hall for your opening reception there.

Obviously you have Scottish heritage, we were talking about that before we got rolling.

Where's that come from for you?

Tell us a little about your background.

- Yeah, so I was born in Nova Scotia, Canada.

Nova Scotia actually is Latin for New Scotland, and so most people have Scottish heritage there.

And you know, it's just, it's one of those things growing up.

I've worn a kilt for years and years, I got married in a kilt, just part of what you do.

I don't play the bagpipes, by the way.

And so my wife and I, she's from Arizona, but when we moved to Canada to Nova Scotia, you know.

We have three daughters and so if you're a young girl in Nova Scotia, Scottish Highland dancing is just part of what you do.

And so even as we've moved to different places, our girls kept up on that.

And so, really, I'm also a dance dad and so just happened that our girls primarily did Scottish Highland dancing.

So, you know, I think in America today, you know, we kind of strive to have that blend, right?

You want to be proud of your history where you came from, but also accepting of other cultures as well.

And so for me, it's a point of pride, but I will speak to everyone and friends with everyone even if they have no Scottish ancestry whatsoever.

- Yeah.

You came to the US to study pharmacy- - Yeah.

- Pharmacy administration.

If you just do a quick Google search of you, you have over 7,000 citations for your research, and you mentioned at your opening press conference to me that you plan on keeping an active research profile.

You wanna keep doing that on top of being president.

Why do you feel that is important for a president to maintain that?

'Cause from what I know about higher education, a lot of presidents don't do that.

- That's right.

Yeah.

I think you're exactly right.

It's probably more common that presidents don't do that.

You know, for me, part of it is just being, I guess a combination of two things.

One would be it's something I still enjoy.

I get pleasure, passionate about research.

It's something that I've kept even as I became a dean, and then a provost, something that I've kept.

So I asked the board if it would be okay if I did it and they agreed.

Secondly, I think also to be a role model and message.

If we're truly a public research university, I think that should start at the top.

And so for me, now having said that, my main job is president, so I'm not saying that that's gonna take over my life, but again, I think it sends a message.

I also plan to do some teaching as well- - Really?

- And so, you know, for me, again, I have a faculty appointment in the College of Medicine and I'm proud of that.

So in many ways it also keeps me grounded.

I've already had a number of students that when they found that out, they've messaged me on Instagram or they've sent me emails and asked if they could be part of my research program.

I brought my postdoc with me from Georgia, so he's actually now a faculty member in CMed.

And so we're meeting with faculty, we're meeting with students as we're planning out our research program.

- Do you want other administrators, other people that are holding higher positions within the university to also do research or to also be in the classroom that you said it starts at the top?

Do you think other administrators should do the same?

- Well, certainly at Augusta University, where I was previously, I was a provost, so all the deans reported to me.

As I hired new deans are bringing in new leaders, that was an expectation that, you know, at least 10% of the time would be devoted to research.

And again, part of it, I think, is being that role model.

Now here I can't, you know, retroactively say, "Now suddenly you're gonna be doing research."

I think it's often very hard for someone who has stopped perhaps doing research, over the course their career to suddenly start doing it again.

But I think as much as we can, and certainly looking forward, I think it does send a message when you've got the senior leadership team, academic leadership team of the university that are engaged in one of the core missions, which is research.

So again, I think that sends a powerful message to department chairs and to the faculty as well.

- You obviously mentioned you were familiar with Mount Pleasant, the CMU community, how you came up here for those summers with your daughters.

But obviously you probably did a lot more research in preparation for your interviews here.

I'm curious, when you were doing that research, was there a moment you said something like, "Wow, that that's an opportunity here," or, I'm really excited about that, or I really want this job because of that reason.

Was there a moment like that for you?

- I think there were several moments.

I mean, there's an awful lot to be proud of here.

That was evident to me before I interviewed, before I accepted the job and it really has been reinforced since I've been here.

So I think part of it, if I think of, you know, what were the things that really attracted to me that CMU is knocking it outta the park, part of it is the history here going back to 1892.

There's a legacy here of training and educating great leaders.

You know, the whole leadership standard aspect, that's novel.

I mean, many universities are similar in that, you know, they're involved in teaching and research and scholarship, but to me, the emphasis on leadership really stands out.

And I've kind of been a leadership junkie my whole career as well.

Just by chance, probably the single most influential book that's influenced me on leadership is called "The Ideal Team Player."

The author is Patrick Lencioni, a New York Times bestseller, that just happens to be the book that CMU HR has used for years now.

- Wow.

- That they give new supervisors.

So again, you think about kind of the synergies there.

There's been many moments like that that I've actually taken a step back and said, wow, you know, is this real, this seems to be such a great fit.

- I wanna shift to some more questions about just higher education- - Yeah.

- In general.

Public polling is showing that there is a loss in faith of the value of a college degree today.

More people are saying that maybe college degrees, are questioning, is it worth my time, is it worth the high price tag?

I want you to make the case though.

Why is the college degree in 2024 still worth pursuing in your mind?

- Right.

Yeah, and I can understand why some folks are having those doubts.

You can certainly get great jobs without having a college degree.

You look at Elon Musk and others that have toted that.

But I still think at the end of the day, your best chance for success as far as return on investment is with a college degree.

And what's interesting, just about a month ago, there was a organization I called F1 that looked at return on investment and looked at from an international student perspective at universities.

So they looked at just international students here in the US and looked at their return on investment.

They had four different criteria.

So things such as, you know, salary and the types of jobs they got.

They ranked every university in the country, and in their top 10 list, I'll just throw out some names, Harvard University was number nine, Princeton University was number four, CMU was number five.

Number five in the entire country.

And so for me, it's, yes, in general, in higher ed, I think it's a good we have a good ROI, but more specifically, we're doing something right here at CMU.

We're on the same top 10 list as Harvard and Princeton.

And so to me, that sends a message.

I've been sharing that fact with, whether it's parents on admission tours, I spoke to our transfer students last week.

To me that really, again, emphasizes the importance of what we're doing here at CMU and it can continue to keep doing that.

- I was at your first press conference when you were 10 minutes into the job.

You were president elected at that point even, I guess I should say.

The first thing you said was you want a student first approach.

And at a recent board of trustees meeting, you said that 2025 is gonna be the year of the student.

What does that look like in practice to you?

- I think it's just starting to be being very intentional.

Any major decision that my cabinet is making, we need to ask a simple question, is this in the best interest of students?

And to me, if you frame a discussion around that, that will then influence the decisions that you're making as a university.

So again, that's a very specific tangible thing.

The second thing for me personally, is to make sure that I'm being approachable, that I'm understanding the student perspective and what does that mean on a real world?

It means that three to four days a week, my wife and I are eating in the dining hall here, I'm working out in a sack, I'm active on social media.

And when students send me questions, I get back to them.

And so for me, having that grounding at a student level, hearing what their issues are, but then at the cabinet level, making sure that our decisions really are driven by, again, what's in the best interest of students - In recent, I know, again, I'm gonna preface this question with, you're a little over a month into the job.

But there has been a feeling that we've talked to people throughout the years that there's been maybe a little bit of disconnect between Mount Pleasant, CMU trying to maybe create a little bit more of a partnership or togetherness.

There's that kind of, that vibe has been kind of happening that we've seen, we've talked to community members.

But you've been at Augusta, University of Cincinnati, how did you work to maybe forge a better relationship with the community where your institutions are and what ideas maybe do you have to strengthen that bond?

- Yeah, the reality is, we certainly share that bond and we need to strengthen it.

We are in this together, meaning CMU and Mount Pleasant and Isabella County.

What I really liked is that right from the start of this process, looking for a new president, the board of trustees reached out and the mayor was actually on the search committee.

So Amy was on the search committee.

When I did my final interview with the board of trustees, I promised two things related to this topic, community relations, that I was going to reach out to the mayor and have lunch with her my first month and reach out to the tribal council and meet with them and have lunch with the chief.

I've kept both of those promises and have done that.

Also spoke to the city commission as well.

And so I think part of that starts with me showing that this is critically important.

If you look at our university strategic plan, there's only four priorities in that plan, one of them is community engagement.

And so it's not something that we do on the side or when it feels good or when it's convenient, it needs to be core to our mission.

- And if you think about it as well, it's not just the economic engine that our university has in this community, but it's also opportunities for students to have internships with local businesses.

Also, we wanna make sure that this is an attractive place to live as we're recruiting faculty and staff.

So again, it's certainly, I would argue one of the foremost important things that we need to do as a university.

- You can't go to any college campus today in 2024 and talk to higher ed administrators without the topic of enrollment coming up.

It's not a CMU specific issue, it's been around the country.

For our viewers at home, in 2012 CMU had over 28,000 students, that number sits now at around 14.

While CMU has made gains for some freshman classes in recent years, outgoing students have still outpaced incoming students in recent years.

I understand you are in the middle of developing a strategic enrollment plan, which is the first of its kind at our university here.

What does that look like so far?

Do you have experience developing this type of strategic plan?

- Well, I think you've touched on one of the major issues facing CMU, which is the enrollment decline.

And you're correct in that we're not alone, but at the same time, not all universities are declining.

And I'll just give an example of the University of Cincinnati where I was at two jobs ago, has grown from about 32,000 students to over 53,000 students this fall.

And with very similar demographics as Michigan.

Four years ago when I started as provost at Augusta University, it was similar to CMU in that there was no enrollment plan.

It doesn't mean that folks weren't working on it, just there wasn't a roadmap to enrollment growth.

And so as I come here to to CMU, I see very similar situation where there is no enrollment plan.

And so that was one of the first things that I noticed.

I recommended to the board that we do that, they accepted my recommendation and at last week's board of trustees meaning we outlined the plan for that.

It's not something you put together in a week or a month, it takes a while.

But what that does do, and this is the importance of it, it then provides that roadmap.

What are the areas that we need to invest in so we'll have the greatest growth?

At Augusta University where I was previously, was there four years, the first year we had no enrollment plan, it grew 0.4%.

The second year we started to implement that plan, it grew 2.2%.

The third year we had fully implemented that plan, enrollment grew 7.5%.

In this fall, enrollment grew 9.9%.

And so I see a lot of similarities in the structure of the university between Augusta and CMU.

And I'm doing a deeper dive, just today I've spent four and a half hours with our enrollment team to learn about what they're doing, what are the practices.

We went through the whole process of pretending that I was enrolled as a student- - Really?

- Going through advising.

I had a sit down session with advisors and for me to personally experience that.

The other part, Rick, you know, I'm also coming not to this job as a president, but also as a parent.

I have three college students, myself, my wife and I.

And so just, I can't tell you how many college visits we did the last three or four years.

Understanding from their perspective issues regarding wait list for classes, the quality of food in the dining halls and things like that, things like that really matter.

And so for me, I'm convinced that with this plan, we will enter a new era of growth for CMU.

- I want to go back for just a second, you said that Augusta implemented their plan and they saw these gradual growth throughout the years.

What did you see change on campus?

Did you see that they built new dorms, they got better dining hall food?

Was it they went after non-traditional students?

Like what were maybe some of the keys in that plan that you saw that worked?

- Yeah, there were seven kind of key elements of the plan, I won't go through all seven of them, but just a couple that I'll mention.

One of it is making sure that the academic programs offered by the university were in alignment with workforce needs.

So that could be just, for example, animations, a program that's actually here at CMU as well and also in high demand.

We had a record number of students applying for that.

So we made investments in hiring new faculty, that then the return on investment on that was almost instantaneous where we started to track more students because we could teach more students because of the new faculty that we hired.

Part of it would be launching perhaps degrees that don't exist here at CMU, but there's a huge workforce need.

You know, this fall we'll be launching a degree in nursing here if you think of the demand for nurses in this country.

So I think it's things like that.

The second part I would say also doing a little deeper dive on what should be offered online versus in person.

And of course, CMU was one of the originators of online education in this country, but just like the in-person enrollment declines, our online enterprise has also declined.

And so I think taking a deeper look at that as well and making sure that those degrees offered through online are also what perhaps working professionals are looking for as well.

- One of the reasons the board of trustees, many reasons that they brought you on as president was that you had hands-on experience at Augusta University growing their medical school.

- Yeah.

- You, I believe, helped with the Savannah Campus.

- [Neil] Yep.

- I wanna know, what is your initial assessment of CMU move, trying to move all the medical school, right now for viewers at home who don't know, our M1's and M2's are here in Mount Pleasant, M3's and fours are based in Saginaw.

Wanna put them all under one roof.

The price tag for that new facility is $200 million.

What is your initial assessment of that plan?

- Yeah, I would say this is an interesting topic 'cause the board actually even asked me to take a look at this before I started on November 1st to start to explore the issue.

And I would just preface this by saying, you know, I'm a pharmacist by training but my entire career I've been at universities with large academic health centers.

So this is part of my DNA as well is understanding and working with medical education.

And you're exactly right.

At Augusta University, we grew the medical class from 204 students to 304 students, and also opened a new campus this past summer in Savannah.

So looking here, I think the the pieces are very solid and that we've got a great medical school, it has a clear mission to address rural and underserved.

And as you, you know, mentioned Rick, the fact that the M1 and M2 students are an hour away from the M3 and M4 students is not ideal.

You want the M1 and M2 students to work closely with M3 and M4 students.

There's also the part that we'd like to increase the class size here, but to do that, you have to have medical students that are able to interact with a large number of patients, that often requires larger hospitals and of course that's in the Saginaw area, not here at Mount Pleasant.

So the end goal, I think what we'd like to do, is to bring our students to together, increase the class size, and of course, ultimately that will also help even here at Mount Pleasant as we produce more doctors.

The challenge is kind of logistically of how do we do that.

All I can say right now, we're in the assessment phase of that.

Over the next few months, I'll be coming with specific recommendations to the board of trustees.

I would say though, at this point, we don't know the total cost.

The $200 million figure includes also endowments and also some additional funding for nursing and other programs here.

So we're actually in that process right now of determining how much the, the building would cost.

We should have that information by February.

- So it is no longer a $200 million estimate?

- At this point we're just working with a architectural firm called Studio Gain, they're based out of Chicago.

We've kind of told them what we want in the building, and so they're putting together that design.

Just for example, many medical schools also include research labs.

We're planning on leaving the research enterprise here and that really decreases the cost of the building when you don't have to build fume hoods and all the ventilation and vivarium and all those sorts of things.

And so, again, by February we'll know the total cost of the building.

- President Neil McKinnon, thank you for joining me, really appreciate your time.

- Thanks so much for having me on the show.

- Now while CMU has struggled with enrollment numbers for the past 10 years, there are positive signs.

CMU tells us it's 2024 enrollment numbers increased over the previous year for the first time since 2014, making many optimistic of continued gains in the future.

And that concludes this edition of "Pressing Matters."

Thanks for watching, have a good night.